Shelly Lefkoe
Meeting Yourself

Finding the root of what we genuinely believe is the doorway to living the life we know is possible.

Shelly Lefkoe
Listen Now
Show Notes

Shelly Lefkoe (@Shelly Lefkoe), co-founder of the Lefkoe Institute, empowers clients to overcome long-standing behavioral and emotional challenges, such as procrastination and fear. Shelly’s approach has been proven to unlock a path to greater joy and fulfillment within hours. Her latest book, Hitting the Wall: Eliminate the Beliefs That Sabotage Your Business and Your Life, provides invaluable insights for eliminating self-sabotaging beliefs in business and personal life. 

“Behavior follows beliefs.”

-Shelly Lefkoe

Key Takeaways:

  • Corporate Culture: Corporate culture is often shaped by the collective beliefs of its members, mirroring the individual beliefs that people hold in their personal lives. Understanding this parallel can shed light on organizational behavior and decision-making dynamics.
  • Impact of Beliefs on Entrepreneurship: In the realm of entrepreneurship, success hinges on maintaining a potent mindset and executing decisive actions. Acknowledging and dismantling limiting beliefs is pivotal to surmounting hurdles and attaining business objectives. For an entrepreneur, faith in one’s ideas serves as the linchpin determining the trajectory toward triumph or defeat.
  • Personal Transformation: By eliminating limiting beliefs, individuals can undergo transformative journeys by challenging and reshaping their belief systems. This process can unlock untapped potential and lead to profound changes in various areas of life. 
  • Social Implications of Making Change: Beyond individual benefits, the ripple effects of belief transformation extend to broader societal issues. By addressing deeply ingrained beliefs, such as those contributing to crime or conflict, there’s potential for fostering positive social change and building more harmonious communities.

Sponsors and Promotions: 

Wild Health:

Wild Health is generously extending Mark Divine Show listeners 20% off the cost of membership 

Go to: WildHealth.com/UNBEATABLE,  and use code UNBEATABLE at checkout.

Links for Shelly Lefkoe:




Mark Divine  0:00  

Welcome to the Mark Divine show where we learn to be Unbeatable and develop an Unbeatable Mind. Thanks so much for joining me today. On the show. I like to explore what it means to be courageous by speaking to the world’s most inspirational, compassionate and resilient leaders. I have a broad range of guests, folks from all walks of life. Monks and blockchain wizards to Stoic philosophers and people who have discovered how to help people heal by identifying unsupportive beliefs and eradicating them. That’s my guest today, Shelly Lefkoe. Shelly is the co-founder of the Lefkoe Institute with her late husband, her clients and people who struggle with changing long standing behavioral and emotional issues, like procrastination and fear and relationship stuff. Her approach frees them to live a more joyful life. She does this by identifying the root cause of the problem, which is a limiting belief and eliminating those beliefs in a matter of hours. Her approach has been validated by independent research from the University of Arizona published in the Journal of Clinical Psychology. Lefkoe Institute has helped over 20,000 individual make lasting change to their behaviors and emotions. She’s also the author of a new book called Hitting the Wall: Eliminate the Beliefs That Sabotage Your Business and Your Life. Shelly, super stoked to have you here on the Mark Divine Show. 


Mark Divine 1:16

Thank you so much for joining me on the Mark Divine Show. Super stoked to have you here, ma’am.


Shelly Lefkoe 1:21

Super stoked to be here. 


Mark Divine 1:22

Psychology and therapy have been near and dear to me since I married a therapist at 31 years old. And like, I remember, as I was dating her, I told her, you know, I had the perfect family. And then she went home and actually met my family. And she on the way on the way back, she goes about that perfect family, we need to talk.


Shelly Lefkoe  1:41  

I had the exact same experience.


Mark Divine 1:42

Did you really?


Shelly Lefkoe 1:44

Totally, I told him we, I came from Father Knows Best. And he met my family. And he helped me, said Father Knows Best on drugs.


Mark Divine  1:55  

I know. 


Shelly Lefkoe 1:56

Oh my god, that’s so funny. 


Mark Divine 1:58

Everybody is living in, you know, multiple sheaths, illusion, right? And so therapeutic process, behavioral change, like CBT, you know, or nervous system resets, like EMDR, and all that. They’re just like, attacking it by trying to remove the conditioning, to be able to see more reality more truth, right. So I hadn’t had the opportunity to have the conditioning of understanding that this veil of perfection was not real. Right, that my family had kind of drawn over my eyes. So that’s why it’s so important for people and listeners to to take the time. And if therapy doesn’t appeal to you, then like, start meditating, you know? Or do both ideally, right, you got to do both. Tell us a little bit about your origin story. What led you down the path that you’re on? And some of the influences and experiences good, bad and ugly?


Shelly Lefkoe  2:49  

Yeah. So the first thing is what I do is definitely not therapy.


Mark Divine  2:54  

Thank you for clarifying that. You’re not trained as a psychologist. 


Shelly Lefkoe 2:57

Absolutely not. 


Mark Divine 2:58

Oh, you’re like me where you just did, I went out and said, see what works and you find, find a way to help people. 


Shelly Lefkoe  3:04  

Yeah, so my origin story is, my late husband was on a personal spiritual journey to discover why people know what to do, and don’t do it. Or know what not to do and do it. Everybody knows if you eat healthily, if you exercise, you’ll live longer, and you’ll have a better quality of life. And yet they don’t do it. Some people know going into a relationship, they see all the red flags, and they go in anyway. We know that if we do what we need to do, our lives will be better. And yet procrastination is huge. So he said, why is that? Why did people know what to do, but don’t do it. And he went on a journey. And he was on a plane going to California, the short version, and he kind of downloaded this process. And when he got off the plane, he was going to pitch somebody, he was a business consultant. And he used the process on the people. And they hired him on the spot. And they had five people they were supposed to be seeing. And they wanted motivational people. It was the state of California was going to look at getting people off welfare and on to productive lives. And they were looking for a motivational person. And they hired us to do this work. And so he came home. And my origin story is he said, wait, did you see what I created? And he didn’t say created? My husband was very humble. He said what I downloaded. And he had a friend of ours, who said, I want to be in a relationship. I’d like to get married again. And I just keep meeting the wrong guys or I don’t meet anybody. And he said, what do you believe? And she said, I believe that marriage is suffocating, that you have to give up your own independence, that men are selfish and she started sprouting these beliefs. And he did the process with her and eliminated the belief. As I watched him do it more. I was like, I literally almost fell off my chair, that spirit whacked me on the head, and said, this is what you’re here to do, like I am on this planet to do that. 


Mark Divine  5:28  

You two are complete twinrays in that regard to come together. So you could carry on that work and implement it. 


Shelly Lefkoe  5:34  

Yeah. And I’ve been doing it for over 30 years. Here’s the interesting thing. 30 years ago, when he discovered that beliefs were the source of all of your problems, mostly unconscious beliefs are the source of your problems, get rid of beliefs, you’ll get rid of the problems. People used to say, beliefs, like you mean religious beliefs. What do you mean? Today, everybody knows that beliefs cause our behavior and our emotions? From what I can see. we’re the only ones who know how to permanently eliminate them. 


Mark Divine  6:13  

That’s interesting. Yeah, I’m excited to learn more. You know, many people think of a belief as something that’s cognized. And what you’re saying is really, it’s the unconscious programming, which is what I was referring to earlier as a sheath or a way of knowing. And in my program, I call it a background of obvious, it’s obvious to everyone else, but you, because it’s in the background. It’s part of your context and not the content, until it bubbles up in content in the sense of I can’t or I won’t. Even though you can cognize, and even you can even create words around based upon what you’ve read, and what you know, to be right say, I should not eat that ice cream. But the belief that bubbles up is I can’t not eat the ice cream, because I need it for some reason.


Shelly Lefkoe  6:54  

Yeah. So first of all, a belief is a statement about reality that we hold as the truth. And I love what you said, because people know that their beliefs are silly. I have worked with five Harvard PhDs who had the belief, I’m stupid.


Mark Divine  7:17  

I believe it. It’s completely irrational, right? Because these beliefs are formed in the first six years of our lives are seven years of our lives, right? 


Shelly Lefkoe 7:25

Yes, sir. 


Mark Divine 7:26

That’s amazing. Okay, so you start back to your story. So you fell off your chair, as you had this kind of sudden awakening that this was your work, like, this is why you were on the planet and why you were with your husband? Bless him. So what then happened? You guys started a business or like, just started helping people?


Shelly Lefkoe  7:43  

Yeah, first, we were working in businesses.


Mark Divine 7:47

Like as consultants or…?


Shelly Lefkoe 7:48

Yeah, and doing belief work in business. And then the economy, tanked, it was 1980, whatever it was, I can’t remember. And we had a big house in Westport, Connecticut. And we were doing really, really well. We had a staff of people in business. And we lost everything. Because my husband, my late husband, started paying people out of our pockets, which you should not do, we were doing wonderfully well. And we were considered in those days charm school, you know, we’re going to bring in people to build your self esteem and change blah blah blah. So a lot of our contracts got canceled because of the economy. And then he kept paying people and I was complicit until we lost our house, we went into debt. And then we decided to change the way we were doing it and work with individuals. That’s when we started creating courses and products, we have 19 of the most common self esteem beliefs that people have, that you go through on video for people who either can’t afford sessions or don’t want sessions. So when we have courses, I’ll tell you something a little later about a course that we have that’s based on how to get rid of an emotion in the moment. So we just shifted the whole business we reorganized. We moved to California, because he always wanted to live around conscious people. So we live in the Bay Area. 


Mark Divine  9:19  

Isn’t amazing, like in retrospect how those breakdowns really are necessary to open up the possibility to prepare the ground for the next stage. 


Shelly Lefkoe  9:27  

And I have worked with people in virtually every country. I have a client now in Saudi Arabia, and I sit there and I say to her, are you really in Saudi Arabia? Doing this work and you know, for her, it is what got me through my husband’s death. You know, I was devastated but to get out of bed every day, and thank God I did my work and just serve people. See people’s lives change is mind boggling. I work with people one of my my favorite populations is people who have been sexually abused in some way rape, date rape, you know, incest, because we can quickly get rid of the beliefs. See our premises. What happened to you, is not what is hurting you today?


Mark Divine  10:19  

Yes. What do you include and how you shaped the memories. And then the story you tell around that?, yeah.


Shelly Lefkoe  10:25  

I was speaking at a conference in Costa Rica. And this man who is a serial entrepreneur came up to me, and he said, we have to write a book, this is the missing piece. And I said, okay, that’s what I was going to call a book, if I ever wrote it the missing piece, right? Because all the courses that people take are wonderful and amazing. And they learn things and they come out and they go, oh, my God, that was the best course I ever took. And they took pages and notes. And three days later, the notes are in the drawer, and there is no change. Because the missing pieces you have beliefs in the way that keep you from utilizing all this great information that you learned. So he’s an attorney, he owns a law firm and an entertainment company. And he said, I always wondered why my clients don’t listen to me. I give them great advice. And they don’t listen. And that’s where Morty, my late husband, said he would go into companies and do consulting. And they’d say, this is brilliant, this is fabulous, we’re going to do what you said. And six months later, he would check in, and they didn’t make the changes. Because corporations have beliefs, people have beliefs. That’s what a corporate culture is, its beliefs of the company. So we wrote a book about entrepreneurship. And I’ll tell you something very ironic. So it’s called Hitting the Wall: Eliminate the Beliefs that Sabotage Your Business and Your Life, and came out in November, when my husband died, Mark, I did not know. The first thing about running a business. I didn’t want to run a business. I didn’t care about running a business. 


Mark Divine  12:08  

Suddenly, there you are. You got it. 3-2-1 go.


Shelly Lefkoe  12:12  

3-2-1, go. You’re not kidding. So, thank God, I had eliminated the beliefs that would keep me from doing it. And I just kind of stepped up and took it on. And my business has tripled what it was. And it’s like a miracle.


Mark Divine 12:27

When did Morty pass away?


Shelly Lefkoe 12:28

He passed away eight years ago.


Mark Divine 12:29

Eight years. Okay. 


Shelly Lefkoe 12:31

Yeah. So the fact that I wrote a book or we wrote a book on entrepreneurship, is pretty insane.


Mark Divine  12:39  

Right, that’s interesting. So that book Hitting the Wall is about is really geared toward those in business who are trying who are seeing that limiting beliefs are impeding their progress, or there’s a perception of that.


Shelly Lefkoe  12:50  

Yeah. It’s astonishing how you take someone who does a lot of work and builds this amazing building on shaky foundation. Because the beliefs never go away. The foundation is shaky.


Mark Divine  13:08  

Yeah, it’s way smarter to work on the foundation first, isn’t it and then build on top of that? 


Shelly Lefkoe 13:13



Mark Divine 13:13

You know, it’s hard to transform a business that’s on a shaky foundation.


Shelly Lefkoe  13:17  

Right, but you are such a phenomenal example, of someone who became something that I don’t know what the percentage of people who become Navy SEALs are. But it’s minuscule of the population, the commitment, that dedication, the discipline, the everything that it takes, my clients son is was a Navy Seal, and I’ve had two clients who were Navy SEALs, and I hear stories of what you had to do. And you know, the, it’s mind boggling. And yet, the beliefs don’t go away. You know, you would think like, you have evidence like, oh my God, I am this amazing human being and nothing’s going to stop me and I work with CEOs, or people who call me and they go Shelly, I’m worth $20 million. When is it going to be enough, when can I stop trying to prove it? And I think never until the beliefs go away. It’s going to be driven.


Mark Divine  14:17  

And even if the beliefs go away, it’s okay to earn more money. Just be clear about why you’re doing it. And or I should say, who’s doing it right. That’s part of my work is understanding who is the real doer in our world, but I’m, I’m dying to know what was unique about the process. What do you call it by the way, do you have a name for it?


Shelly Lefkoe  14:34  

It’s called the Lefkoe method.


Mark Divine  14:35  

Lefkoe method. Okay,


Shelly Lefkoe  14:36  

Lefkoe method. So here’s what’s unique. I’m going to make an assertion, okay. The statement, it is impossible to not believe something you think you saw.


Mark Divine  14:50  



Shelly Lefkoe 14:50



Mark Divine 14:50

Because it’s it’s imprinted in your reality. So you’ve got some story about it?


Shelly Lefkoe  14:54  

No, because you can see it. 


Mark Divine 14:56



Shelly Lefkoe 14:56

If somebody said to you, Shelly has jet black hair. You’d say, no, she doesn’t. And they say yeah she does it. No, she’s a redhead, I saw her. I mean, I saw that she was a redhead. So if somebody said, oh, Mark is this weak, sissy guy, they’d say, no, he’s not. I saw he was, and it feels like you could see a belief. So let’s take the most common belief that everybody has. I’m not good enough. Now, some people have what we call good survival strategy believes. What makes me good enough is, achieving things, taking care of people, pleasing people, whatever your survival strategy is, that will drive your behavior. I’m not good enough, is a beach ball. So now we’re holding the beach ball underwater. What makes me good enough are my achievements. So as long as I’m achieving and making a lot of money, and and I’m the CEO, and I’m that, then this stays underwater, but it’s exhausting, because you have to keep doing it. 


Mark Divine 16:02

Right, it takes constant reinforcing. 


Shelly Lefkoe 16:04

Yeah, when you go back to where did I’m not good enough come from, as you said, self esteem beliefs, not all beliefs, but self esteem beliefs are formed in the first six to eight years of childhood. So if you have a father, who’s critical, or you know, demeaning, or a mother. Children, every child alive in every country around the world wants three things. Affection, attention, acknowledgement. And when I ask clients in Uganda, or wherever, what is the one word question, every little kid asks, all day long? Everybody says the same thing. 


Mark Divine 16:45



Shelly Lefkoe 16:45

Exactly, why. Why are my parents criticizing me and yelling? Why can I live up to their expectations? Oh, I see. I’m not good enough. Now, when I take clients back to those events, and through a bunch of steps, which you can also do in video, you don’t have to work with me. I asked them the question when I get to that point. Doesn’t it seem like you saw, I’m not good enough? And every single person says, yes, I saw it. Now. If you see something.


Mark Divine 17:23

You believe it.


Shelly Lefkoe 17:24

You can not believe it. 


Mark Divine 17:26



Shelly Lefkoe 17:26

I saw a pink water bottle. Don’t tell me it’s green. Anything you could see. So first of all, that’s why our beliefs stay with us through 15 years of therapy. Because I get people who’ve been in therapy, and I say doesn’t it seem like you saw I’m not good enough. And they say did see it. The Harvard PhD. Every time he said something that his father didn’t like, he’d slap him on the back of the head and say, genius. So when I said to him, doesn’t seem like you saw it was I’m stupid. Because they said to him, you have a PhD from Harvard, and you have the belief, I’m stupid. And he said, Well, I conned my way through Harvard. No amount of evidence will get you to not believe something you think you saw. So when he got I never saw, I’m stupid, or I never saw I’m not good enough. Because anything you could see as a color, shape, and location. What did you see? I saw a my father hit me on the head and say, genius. 


Mark Divine 18:36

He didn’t actually see it. 


Shelly Lefkoe 18:38

I saw my parents criticize me. I saw failing in school, I saw my parents face of disappointment. Oh, where was I’m not good enough, or I’m stupid?


Mark Divine 18:55

It was internally generated, right? 


Shelly Lefkoe 18:57

It was in my mind. I made that up. Then some people say, but I still felt it. All of your feelings come from the meaning you give events. And most of the meaning that you give events come from your beliefs. So if you get rid of your beliefs, you won’t have those feelings. You get rid of the belief I’m not important. And somebody ignores you…


Mark Divine  19:25  

You can’t do it the other way around. You can’t work on the feeling and have it traced back to the belief and then get rid of it or…?


Shelly Lefkoe  19:30  

No. But here’s what you can do. You can get rid of a negative feeling in the moment. I’ll teach you in a little bit how to do that because I want to have something you can take away from this. But the feeling, see, events have no inherent meaning. Right? We don’t know anything for sure, because something happens. 


Mark Divine  19:52  

I would agree 100% of that. There’s an infinite number of variables that go into every single thing that happens. And yet we’re so trained and linear cause and effect, especially in the western world that we want to point to the immediate proximate incident and say that’s the cause or person. 


Shelly Lefkoe  20:08  

Yes. All of that is accurate. But here’s the simplicity of it. Meaning is in your mind.


Mark Divine 20:15



Shelly Lefkoe 20:16

It is never in the event.


Mark Divine 20:17

I agree. 


Shelly Lefkoe 20:17

So my husband died. There were consequences. I miss him. It was horrible. But it doesn’t mean, I’ll never be happy again. Or I’ll never love again, or I’m going to starve to death. And those were some of the meanings I gave it when I didn’t want to get out of bed. So grieving is healthy, not wanting to get out of bed, not healthy. So I would do this little process that we teach. What happened? Morty died. What meaning did I give it? I’m going to starve to death. I don’t know how to run a business. What else could it mean? Well, could mean, you’re going to learn how and you’re going to step up. 


Mark Divine 20:56



Shelly Lefkoe 20:57

But the fact that he died doesn’t mean anything. It’s not that it doesn’t matter. It just doesn’t tell us anything, for sure. So if you have a negative emotion, and when I say negative emotion, it’s an emotion you don’t want. I don’t know about you. I don’t want to feel sad, afraid, anxious, depressed down. I just don’t want to.


Mark Divine  21:21  

 I love those. I try to wallow in those all day long. It’s just awesome. Throw something hard at me. No, I’m just kidding.


Shelly Lefkoe  21:30  

Yeah, I’m like what do you mean negative emotions, there are no negative emotions. I said, that’s right, there are emotions you don’t want.


Mark Divine 21:35



Shelly Lefkoe 21:36

You want em, knock yourself out, I’m not interested. So you can use this little technique. And you can get when you have a negative emotion, what happened, what meaning did I give it? And if you just get it the meanings in your head, it’s not in the event, the emotion will go away. But if you get rid of your beliefs, you won’t give the meaning. And then you won’t have to do that it is as natural as anything.


Mark Divine  22:03  

Yeah, totally agree. You said earlier, this idea of like seeing the belief. I really agree with that. I’ve never articulated like that. But I have said, and I have no evidence. But I have this lived experience that memories always have imagery associated with them, like true memories. Otherwise, we wouldn’t call it a memory, there might be some energy in the body that you could call a feeling. But if it’s not tied to a memory, you can’t peg it in time and space, because there’s no image associated with it. And I also agree with the assertion that imagery of memories or of events in our past is always something less than truth, because it’s a mind generated creation. And so I use imagery, quite extensively in Unbeatable Mind program to change our relationship with our past. 

I guess this is my version of your work, but not sophisticated, and flesh it out as much just call it recapitulation. And the work is with imagery to try to identify where those memories were corrupted or created in a corrupted manner. So imagery for me like it’s a powerful tool, you know, it’s also how our minds can kind of trap us in, in these represent virtual representations, essentially, everything is a virtual reality, we’re living in this virtual world. And that’s where the meaning is, right? Because if you really want to get down to brass taxs, if you look out to these eyes, what you’re really seeing is just energy, everything else is a virtual creation, what I see is a table or a chair, my hyperbaric chamber, it’s all just energy, it is my mind that constructs it into that size, shape, color words, and then creates that reality. So virtual reality is all based on imagery, just like in the gaming world. And so that’s how we create our representations of the past. And so I just wanted to share that because I think that the profound that you discover that and that you could get people to see, or claim that they could see a belief, even when that wasn’t the truth, just because their mind created that.


Shelly Lefkoe  24:02  

Yeah, thank you for that. At the end of the process, you’ll love this. What we get people to see is so I have them, look at the beliefs they eliminated and you can eliminate between one and five, six beliefs in a session depending on how you work and how available your memories are. And we say, Where did those beliefs come from? And people say I created them. Ah, we live as if we are our beliefs, who I am is not good enough. Who I am is not important, right? And if you existed before the belief, you can’t be your belief. And if your belief disappeared and you’re still here, you are not your belief. So if you’re not your belief, then who are you? And what I get to people to see is notice your life is consistent with you your beliefs. So if you believe money is scarce and hard to get, guess what, if you believe life is hard, you’re gonna have a hard life. If you believe what I have to say is not important, you’re not going to speak up. So here’s the thing, I have people look at a belief that they eliminated and how their lives changed after that happened. So I say if you create your beliefs, and your beliefs create your life, what does that make you? The creator of your life. So I have them close their eyes. And I say, and everybody, you could do this with me, you come into this world, as a little ball of consciousness, before you created any distinctions about yourself, life, or people do any exist?


Mark Divine 25:47

Just raw potential.


Shelly Lefkoe 25:48

Pure potential in that space? What’s possible, anything? What limitations do you have in that space? Not? What’s missing in that space, where you will live as if if only this if only that, in that space? Is there anything missing? And they say no. And they’re in an altered state of consciousness where they experience themselves as pure potential, as you said, and it’s a very powerful. Morty  and I used to have these conversations about table land, you know, and he’d say, it’s all energy. And if I had electromagnetic microscopes for eyes, I would see energy. Guess what, if you bang your head on the table, it’s gonna hurt. There’s a duality of both you are the creation, and the creator, as the creator, anything is possible. But you also took a lump of clay pulled it, Mark or Shelly, and we put all these beliefs on the lump of clay. And then we got a lump of a clay that looks like this, like this. And we don’t know why. But if we put the beliefs on, we can take them off. And that’s really powerful. 


Mark Divine  26:56  

I love that. Where are you going with this now? I mean, you’ve been at this for a while, you know, you’ve picked up the pieces when Morty passed on eight years ago, and now you’re helping a lot more people. Are you, is this just going to continue to run his course until you check out, or like what’s happening in your future?


Shelly Lefkoe  27:12  

Yeah, I’m looking for two things. So I believe Mark, with all my heart and soul that this process can not only help entrepreneurs, be more successful, people have better relationships. But it can totally reverse the recidivism rate in this country. 


Mark Divine 27:35



Shelly Lefkoe 27:36

We did a research study with prisoners, or people who were actually getting out. And we had 12, I think 12 of them. And we did very controlled study. And we produced statistically significant behavior change. And we did three research studies. And this one was just off the charts. Because prisoners, people in jail have beliefs. Like this wife beater, I thought that was fascinating. He had the belief, if you do something wrong, you deserve to be punished. And the way to be punished is to beat when he was a kid. That’s what happened to him. So if his girlfriend does something wrong, he beats her. You know, we had somebody who shot people, he didn’t kill anybody, but he shot people. And his belief was his father told him if you if somebody gets in your face and razzes you, if you don’t shoot them, you will lose respect in the hood. You know, so he shot people, he got rid of that belief. He was the sweetest man, he came to my home for dinner. He played with my little daughter in Connecticut. 

So I want people to come to me, which is one of the reasons I do these podcasts. First of all, I want somebody to run my business. 


Mark Divine 28:51

I got that, I’m with you on that one.


Shelly Lefkoe 28:53

Yeah, but I want somebody who who’s passionate about this work. I think peace in the Middle East, I think peace. It’s all beliefs. 


Mark Divine 29:03



Shelly Lefkoe 29:03

All Jews hate Arabs and Arabs hate Jews and they’re out to ge,t it’s nothing but beliefs. Now they have to be willing to do the work and we have to figure out how to do it in mass. So that’s really what what I want. I have two daughters, and it’s hilarious. One only works with business people. Charges a fortune, more than me. I have another daughter in Hawaii, who interestingly enough, did Ayahuasca two years ago, completely changed her life. 


Mark Divine 29:38

Good for her.


Shelly Lefkoe 29:38

She stopped drinking. I mean, she wasn’t an alcoholic, but she was a bartender, and she drank a lot. And she got completely healthy and she’s not like a 12 step, she’s not like, I stopped drinking and it’s just 


Mark Divine 29:53

It just happened.


Shelly Lefkoe 29:53

Just her life is different. I don’t drink. I don’t do this. I and all of a sudden She was my non spiritual daughter, she’s big wave surfer. You know, she’s a little powerhouse. And all of a sudden after this journey, and she’s done a couple more, she’s, like, very spiritual. And now she wants to do this work. And she’s in our training. She’s getting certified, she’s gone through the whole training, even though she’s grown up with it and really knows it. She wanted to do it the way everybody else did. And she’s on the opposite end of the spectrum of what my other daughter charges for right now. But so it’s very cute, I’m kind of in the middle of the two of them. So hopefully, right now, neither of them want to business. They don’t want to run a business. So we have to work some things out. But it hasn’t happened yet. People come to me and they go, I want to get this workout to the world. This is amazing. 


Mark Divine 30:48

Yeah, I’ve had a ton of that.


Shelly Lefkoe 30:49

For some reason it hasn’t happened in that way yet. So we’ll see. I trust the universe. 


Mark Divine 30:55

Right. Trust, it’ll happen when it’s the right time with the right partner. 


Shelly Lefkoe 31:00



Mark Divine 31:00

That’s cool that your daughters are doing the work, though. I really appreciate the work you’ve done. Because, first of all, I think it’s all hands on deck. You can look at the world and from unitive perspective, say everything is exactly the way it’s supposed to be. But then from when you look at it from kind of like the duality perspective of what’s really going on, you’re like, yeah, yeah, but it’s kind of a shit show. We’re at the long tail of a long period of serious control, and violence and negativity that’s just been like a shadow overall world for a couple 1000 years. I mean, the yogi’s talk about the Kali Yuga, we’re coming out of that dark age, time. And so it’s really on us warriors who understand that to flourish, for humans to flourish, they have to be positive, they have to eradicate the shadow and the negative belief systems and they have to move away from fear and violence. And when you do that, you begin to vibrate and your consciousness elevates. And you begin to attract that what you want in the world and what you want to see. It’s like Ghandi, you first Be the change you want to see. And then the world will change around you. And we can do that at scale through these podcasts and through our books, and through 1000s and 1000s of people doing this work, and then teaching it and coaching and mentoring and just showing up. 


Shelly Lefkoe 32:12

Do you have kids? 


Mark Divine 32:13

I have two stepdaughters and a 24 year old adopted Hawaiian son. I didn’t need to clarify all that or classify all that. I guess I’m a classic California family. 


Shelly Lefkoe 32:24



Mark Divine 32:24

Different. But awesome, incredible people.


Shelly Lefkoe  32:26  

Yeah, here’s what I asked. The other thing I want is when when Morty died, and I had to take the business, my parenting business kind of got put to the side. But I believe with all of my heart and soul, if we become conscious parents, and we are become aware of how our behavior is impacting our children, the beliefs that they will form. So for instance, if you don’t hit a child, they will not have the belief that violence is a way to get what you want, or handle things. War could stop. If you teach your children, the values of kindness, and compassion, and love, you will raise conscious generation of kids the world will change.


Mark Divine  33:18  

The world will change. Yes, that’s why I’m so I’m very optimistic or bullish about the future. There are those who are before us who are at the vanguard, and now we’re doing the work. But you know, it’s the second third generations that are growing up now with language and conversations like this being the norm, as opposed to like, even 10 years ago, or 15 years ago, you and I didn’t have a platform for a conversation like this, far fewer people are interested, especially men, you know what I mean? And look how quickly it’s changing. And we’re at the tail end, right? I just turned 60 this year. But when I look at my 24 year old son and my 13 year old granddaughter, like they aren’t take things that we thought were be like, in the past or pushing a rock up a hill, like Sisyphus, they just take it for granted. And so I think in 20 years, you know, there will be some tumultuous times from the tail end of that violence I was talking about, you see it happening, you know, the drumbeats of war and all that. But I think that we’re going to quickly come to a place of kind of abundance and mutual support, I guess, globally. But it’s the next generation is two generations removed from me that is going to lead us there.


Shelly Lefkoe  34:27  

I know my grandson is 10 and you’ll appreciate this. His dad was military and when he was little, if he did something really shitty his dad would say to him, Loki, don’t be a dick. The first time I heard that I kind of went and then I said, huh.


Mark Divine  34:44  

that’s better than hitting them. That’s good.


Shelly Lefkoe  34:46  

It’s a good message. Don’t be a dick.


Mark Divine 34:52

I like that. 


Shelly Lefkoe 34:53

Yeah. But I tell parents all the time to listen to your kids. My Loki, once did something he pushed a kid off the When I in Hawaii, and it was just this momentary light that just happened. And months later, we were riding in the car and I said something to him and he said, Oh, I don’t deserve that Mimi. And I said, what? And he said, yeah, yeah, no. And I asked him what. I never asked why is meaning, meaning is made up? Why is it terrible question for everybody listening? Don’t ask why ask what? What happened? What can I do about it? What did you feel when I said that? What can we do to change it? Even how is fine, but why is a shit question? To him, what do you believe honey that has you say you don’t deserve it? And he said, I’m bad Mimi. I said, you know, it could mean you’re bad. And it could mean you did something that didn’t work. I tell parents don’t use bad and good, right and wrong. Things work or they don’t work. Hitting doesn’t work, hurting people doesn’t work. Stealing doesn’t work. It just doesn’t. 

So I said to him, you know, there’s not a person on this planet that didn’t do something they wish they didn’t do. We all do. And so we did the process. Did you ever see, I’m bad? You saw yourself push a little boy off the lanai. And he’s fine, and did you learn something? Yes. So will you do that? Again? No. Great. So that was a learning opportunity. And all mistakes are learning opportunities. So I’m very cognizant of what he’s concluding, given what he sees and what happens in his life. And thank God, he lives in a place where he’s a free range kid, you know, he bikes every place. He’s 10 years old, he’s on his own a lot. But he’s not home staring at screens. My daughter won’t have it.


Mark Divine 36:46

Good for her.


Shelly Lefkoe  36:47  



Mark Divine 36:47

That’s an epidemic that needs to somehow get reined in as well. It’s important to trust your kids, but also to protect them from the control or some, you know, I have the saying that if you’re not training your mind, then someone’s training it for you. Or someone’s training your kids minds, right? So the constant plugged into social media, and it’s mind training. And so do you want your kids to be trained by that? Or do you want them to be trained by nature, by the by the waves, by the sunshine by the friends out in the park? I know what a big difference I would make.


Shelly Lefkoe  37:17  

Yeah, I wanted to make a distinction. When I when I brought that up. The distinction was we have to start raising human beings and not human doings. So you know, we will say to our kids, you did this, you did that you didn’t you took out the garbage, you did your homework, you didn’t do your homework, it’s doing doing doing you scored a goal, you got an A, it’s all about doing, as opposed to I love being with you. You know, it’s like being with you, Mark, you’re very thoughtful. Like, you’re really listening, and you rock it and you think about it. And you say, wow, is what I’m teaching the same or different. And what can I learn here? That’s so inspiring to me, because you’re 60 years old, and you’re still growing. 


Mark Divine  38:05  

We’re just getting warmed up, aren’t we? I feel that way too, thank you


Shelly Lefkoe  38:11  

Yeah, but you know, I always say what you say interest people who you are inspires them. 


Mark Divine 38:17

I love that, yeah.


Shelly Lefkoe 38:18

And when Morty died, no one said of the 100 people who were here, no one said, Oh, I loved him because he went to the University of Chicago. Oh, he wrote three books or he created a process. That’s not what they said, was he was the most loving man I ever met. He was present. He was non judgmental. He made me feel special. They talk about who he was, not what he did. No one cares. And yet, if you have the belief, what makes me good enough are my achievements, or what makes me important are my achievements, you have to keep doing it. And your kid becomes your achievement and they have to excel. Because otherwise you’re I’m not good enough comes up. 


Mark Divine  39:12  

Absolutely. Well said. And I know a lot of people who just heard that were like, yes, shucks, she’s right. I know it. I’ve heard it a million times, but I’m still doing it. So it’s time to get off.


Shelly Lefkoe  39:25  

If you go to eliminatebeliefs.com You can eliminate a belief for free and have a direct experience. There are three of the most common beliefs Eliminate


Mark Divine  39:37  



Shelly Lefkoe 39:39



Mark Divine 39:40

Is that how you like people to connect with you? Or do you also do social media? Or how do you? 


Shelly Lefkoe  39:46  

Yeah, I mean, you can also buy the book. We take you through the process. It’s supposedly for entrepreneurs. 


Mark Divine 39:53

It’s for everybody. 


Shelly Lefkoe 39:53

It’s about all the most common patterns that people have procrastination, worrying about what people think of you, you know, when I got rid of the belief, what makes me good enough is having other people think well of me. That’s when I got my life.


Mark Divine  40:08  

The book is called Hitting the Wall:Eliminate the Beliefs that Sabotage Your Business and Your Life


Shelly Lefkoe 40:13

Yes, sir. 


Mark DIvine 40:14

Well, Shelly, this has been a really, really enjoyable discussion. Really appreciate you. Thanks so much for for doing the work you’re doing and thank your husband, right for the work that he did. Laying the foundation and your daughters. Yeah, stand by to support you anyway I can.


Shelly Lefkoe  40:28  

Thank you. Thanks for having me on. You’re an angel.


Mark Divine 40:31

It’s been a pleasure.


Mark Divine  40:33  

That was a fascinating episode. Thank you so much, Shelley. Appreciate your time. Appreciate your presence and your wisdom. I love that admonishment to not ask why, but ask what and to describe, you know, this idea that every belief has an image associated with it. That’s powerful so we can change the image we’ll change the belief, check her out, eliminatebeliefs.com. The show notes for the show will be up on my website at MarkDivine.com. You can find the show on LinkedIn or on the website or wherever you listen. You can reach out to me on X at Mark Divine or on Instagram or Facebook at Real Mark Divine. Plug for the new newsletter Divine Inspiration, which comes out every Tuesday where I have a blog that I write every week. I have show notes for the week’s podcast book. I’m reading other really cool, inspirational positive things that come across my desk. Check it out and share it with your friends. Go to MarkDivine.com to subscribe. Thanks so much for my team, Jason Sanderson, Catherine Divine and streamline media help produce this podcasts and bring incredible guests like Shelley to you every week. Ratings and reviews are very helpful. So if you haven’t done so, please consider doing so. Wherever you listen or watch, it’s very helpful to help others give the show the credibility it deserves. Thanks so much for being part of the change. You want to see it the world that Shelly and I discussed. We can do that, at scale, to support the next generation to usher in a more positive, prosperous and balanced age, let’s call it that. Till next time. Stay focused, be unbeatable. Hooyah!


Transcribed by Catherine and https://otter.ai



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