The most effective way to de-stress a kid when upset is through another person to co-regulate into eye contact.
Relationship expert and coach Jayson Gaddis(@JaysonGaddis) advocates for us to remember that life is relational. Shining his talents as an artist, author, podcaster, speaker, and executive coach, he developed The Relationship School, where he trained over 200 coaches in 11 countries. His book Getting to Zero: How to Work Through Conflict in Your High Stakes Relationship was voted editor’s choice, best nonfiction, and best leadership and business book in 2021 on Amazon.
Jayson Gaddis(@JaysonGaddis) believes in being relational with self and others, which ignites openhearted living. Jayson’s an artist, author, and executive coach. As CEO and founder of The Relationship School, he is passionate and prepared to train and support anyone ready to break unhealthy patterns and liberate themselves in relationships. He has trained over 200 coaches in 11 countries as a relationship expert. He’s got a fantastic book called Getting to Zero: How to Work through Conflict in Your High Stakes Relationship.
“Depending on what you want, right, like a guy has to look, if I want good sex, if I want a heart connection, if I want my kids to trust me, if I want to be a trustworthy leader, most of us are more and more drawn to heart-centered leaders.”
– Jayson Gaddis
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Mark Divine 0:00
Welcome to the Mark Divine Show. This is your host Mark Divine. On the show, I talked to amazing people from all walks of life. Some of my favorite are those who are just steeped in areas that are near and dear to me around development. And my guest today, Jayson Gaddis is such an individual. Jayson’s an artist, he’s an author. He’s a podcaster speakers, executive coach, CEO, founder, human behavior specialists, relationship expert. He’s done it all. He’s the creator of interpersonal intelligence and present center relationship coaching. He’s trained over 200 coaches in 11 countries. He’s got a fantastic book called Getting to Zero: How to Work through Conflict in Your High Stakes Relationship. It was voted Editor’s Choice, best nonfiction and best leadership and business book in 2021 on Amazon. Jayson has been married to an amazing wife since 2007. Has two beautiful kids. They live in Boulder, Colorado, when he doesn’t live and breathe his relationship stuff with his family, he pretty much gets his ass handed to him. His words. Super stoked to have you here. Jayson. Thanks for joining me again, on the Mark Divine Show. Hooyah!
Mark Divine 1:01
So man, it’s good to see you again, Jayson. It’s been a while.
Jayson Gaddis 1:03
Yeah, you too. Mark. I’m just grateful to get a little time with you.
Mark Divine 1:07
We didn’t really have much time to chat. Because last time I saw you you were presenting you were in presenter mode.
Jayson Gaddis 1:11
Mark Divine 1:12
At our Unbeatable Event.
Jayson Gaddis 1:13
Yeah, that was really fun. Thanks for that again. Yeah. How you been man?
Mark Divine 1:16
I’ve been really well, it’s been quite an intense few years for me. Complete transformation of the business, the businesses, just like you got a few balls spinning.
Jayson Gaddis 1:27
Mark Divine 1:28
And I don’t know if you knew this, but I went back to Pepperdine to get my PhD in Global Leadership.
Jayson Gaddis 1:33
right. Last time we talked are you so I’m assuming you’re still in that program.
Mark Divine 1:36
I’m in that program. I just finished my sixth of eight semesters of coursework.
Jayson Gaddis 1:41
Mark Divine 1:41
So I’m kind of spooling up my dissertation. And we’re going to study the Unbeatable Vertical Development Program. Which is built on the foundation of integral theory combined with Eastern and Western practices. So we do a lot of you know, what you do in terms of relationship and depth psychology and, but also combine it with a lot of the more Eastern practices gleaned from my martial arts and yoga, you know history so…
Jayson Gaddis 2:03
Mark Divine 2:04
We actively teach as a practices breathwork and visualization and mindfulness and non dual awareness and those types of things. And so it’s really quite extraordinary to see what happens when you integrate the best of east and west into into a framework of a practice a sangha, or a Sangha and a sadhana practice in a community of practitioners. So I want to bring some validity to the program, because we have extraordinary testimonial value, but I haven’t had any research done on it. So I figured I’d do it myself.
Jayson Gaddis 2:34
Yeah, that’s so cool. Remind me how long the program is?
Mark Divine 2:37
Minimum six months, our foundational course is a year long. I’m going to validate both of those timeframes.
Jayson Gaddis 2:45
Mark Divine 2:45
Six months in my dissertation, but then on the follow on study, one of the things ideally I’d show is a stage shift in consciousness. I’m not sure how I’m going to validate that right, because the instruments are kind of there is the leadership maturity, which is a sentence completion tests created by Susan Creeck Riter. It’s a complicated test. So I’m looking at trying to validate and develop an instrument that would be more of a let like a Likert scale type instrument. There’s a woman named Beena Sharma, who runs the Vertical Development Academy. Their work is built upon integral theory and the work of stage theory. So they have a seven stage model that they claim is valid, you can actually test you know, kind of what stage you are trailing, and leading, as well as your center of gravity.
Jayson Gaddisn 3:27
Mark Divine 3:27
And it’s pretty accurate. I’ve done it myself, and pretty interesting.
Jayson Gaddis 3:30
So cool. Can we review just the high level integral concept of levels of development? Perhaps, you probably have a better grasp of it than I do. But Ken Wilber, who’s the kind of originator of the integral system and theory, seems like it was keen to study human development in throughout life, and that some of us get stuck at certain stages of development. And if we continue to develop ourselves, we actually increase our consciousness. I think he calls it what depth and span I can’t remember.
Mark Divine 4:00
People get a little bit stuck on the words, right. And I like to say, words are really just pointers. So when you weren’t use a word like consciousness, it means something, maybe to you and I that that others would be like, what does that mean? Because you know, you’re either conscious or unconscious.
Jayson Gaddis 4:14
When you talk about consciousness in terms of development, we’re talking about more depth and span of awareness or understanding or a perspective. And so Wilbers claim and the developmentalist claim built on the work of believe it or not Maslow, Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs was a essentially a stage model, even though he didn’t really look at it in terms of the development of consciousness, he was just looking in terms of human needs.
Jayson Gaddis 4:37
Mark Divine 4:37
And then the other kind of early theorists was Piaget. Piaget basically looked at the ego development of children said that child’s ego or slash personality, which is another another word, you have to really be careful with his ego in the way he used it in developmental world just means your personality. So children’s ego development he noticed, developed in stages, and these stages could be categorized and named. And there’s certain observable behaviors that are different at these different stages. So the developmental theorists like Levenger and Susan Creeck Riter and Robert Keegan and then Wilber. built upon this and applied it to personal development and leadership development, which is pretty extraordinary. And to your point, what they found was, generally speaking, so depending upon the theorists, there’s anywhere from like three major stages, egocentric, ethnocentric, world centric, but within those three, you can break that down into 7 to even 10 or 11. Depending upon how fine you want to split the atom.
In Unbeatable Mind. I simplified it to five. But I recognize that you know, were a couple stages of Wilber is going to fit into one of mine, and I wanted to name it in very, very simple way. So the five stages are survivor. And this is the first stage and if you’re in a war torn region, or if you’re struggling for food every day, or you know, if you’re at a conscious level, where you’re kind of not going to evolve beyond the gang member/thug type individual, that’s Survivor Mode. It’s very guttural existence, very physical existence very, you know, needs based, ego centric existence. The second stage we call protector, you know this, but for the listener, there’s both positive and negative or, you know.
Jayson Gaddis 6:19
Like a high side and the low side to each.
Mark Divine 6:21
Yeah a high side, low side, the positive, the shadow side. So these aren’t meant to be judgments. Like if you have someone says, Well, that sounds like me, I’m a protector. Yeah, great, because there’s a lot of positive in the protector, like the sheepdogs strong attitude, the courageous warrior, is sometimes we just need to tap into our protector mode. But if you’re stuck there as a stage of development, it looks a lot like the bureaucrat and I shouldn’t say stuck there. But if this is your dominant place, bureaucracy, right, protecting the status quo.
Jayson Gaddis 6:46
Mark Divine 6:46
If you are a strict religious, then you’re protecting that worldview.
Jayson Gaddis 6:52
Yeah, protecting your belief system.
Mark Divine 6:54
That’s right. If you’re caught up in an alcoholic family system, and you’re not participating in Al Anon, or you know, AA system or something, then you’re protecting that system. And you’re not going to be able to grow beyond that system.
Jayson Gaddis 7:05
Mark Divine 7:05
So that’s the second stage we call protectors very, still egocentric. You can have a little ethnocentrism there, because now we have to, like protect my religion, right. And it means in order to protect my religion, your religion needs to be bad or worse. And we might even go to war over that same thing. My country is better than your country or my way of life is better than yours. And so if you’re going to impinge on that, then we’re going to go to Warren that so it’s a very stages, both first and second stage are prone to violence on the shadow. The third stage primary stage, we’re moving from ethno-centricity into world-centricity, and this is really the achiever. So entrepreneurs, you know, executives, experts, Wilbur classifies experts is different than the achiever. I kind of lump them all together, because, you know, a lot of experts kind of blend into entrepreneurs and CEO types and flow back and forth. And when I say expert, I mean like the PhD academic or the expert technician. So the experts at slash achievers are much more world-centric. But there is a shadow side in terms of like, what you see with corporatism in the 20th century and early 21st century where you know, the corporation’s themselves are full of do good achievers, but the corporation’s end up doing a lot of harm. And those achievers hide behind the corporate veil, that still is kind of more developed than the first two stages, but still room to grow.
The fourth stage we call the equalizer, and this is the stage that Wilber says is pluralistic. You know, everyone’s equal. This is why you see the green meme and the Green Revolution. And even green colonialism is the shadow side of equalizer where we’re just going to export our do good. And we’re all equal kind of values onto the world, which ends up doing a lot of harm to the global south and underdeveloped. So there’s still room to grow. Even though that’s more inclusive, it’s more world centric. Each one of these as you know, each one of these stages transcends and includes the stage before it.
Jayson Gaddis 9:02
Mark Divine 9:03
But it’s not until you get to what Wilber calls the integral stage, or what Susan Crick Riter would call the self actualizing, into the self transcendent stages, that you are firmly worldcentric. And you’re beginning to transcend and include all the other stages, but you’re, you’re also eradicating the shadow of those earlier stages. You don’t fully evolve to the highest stages without eradicating the shadow. Let me say it this way, like one of Wilbers famous quotes was “growth starts when you wake up to the reality that you were living a story.” And so now you can you have this opportunity to deconstruct that story and construct something different. So then you begin to grow up and growing up as growing through these stages. And you might wake up and say wow, I’ve got a lot of protector in me because I grew up in that kind of really staunchly religious or in my case, alcoholic family.
Jayson Gaddis 9:52
Mark Divine 9:53
And but I got a dose of achiever and I can see how that was like greed. Okay, so you overcome those and you have to do the emotional work in order to transcend and include to move beyond. So growing up has a heavy dose of cleaning up.
Jayson Gaddis 10:05
Mark Divine 10:06
Which is the emotional work, which is your, your work your life’s work.
Jayson Gaddis 10:09
Mark Divine 10:10
It’s helping people clean up. And then you can show up as a fully integrated whole person. So, integrated development, vertical development is whole person development, where you, you wake up to the fact that you have the unbelievable potential inside of you that the only thing holding you back is you the constructs and the conditioning of your childhood and, and also your epigenetics and even your karma. So you wake up to the fact that you actually have absolute raw potential to be anyone do anyone that is right for you, right in your life. But in order to get there, you’ve got to grow up in order to grow up, you got to clean up your past.
Jayson Gaddis 10:42
Yeah, that’s great summary. I love how you’ve, you’ve got them into five stages. I’m reading Wilbers, what is it sex something.
Mark Divine 10:49
Sex ecology and…
Jayson Gaddis 10:51
Spirituality or something else? It’s, it’s so good. It’s like the seminal work I think of is that’s such such a foundation. I mean, it’s hard to read, you gotta go slow. I gotta…
Mark Divine 11:00
You know start, if you’re listening, then you know, if you like the idea here, then check out Wilbers Theory of Everything. That’s probably like the one on one place to start. And you get the whole gist of it.
Jayson Gaddis 11:10
Yeah, totally. There’s a few things I want to unpack here. I love that we’re talking about human development, essentially, in consciousness. I think that’s why I’m drawn to your, you as a person and the work you do, because you get this. I think there’s so many personal development programs out there that are, are missing some of the just basics here, which is that we grow in our development through time. And the thing that Wilbur doesn’t even talk about directly in my readings of his, which is what I call relational development. And if we’re going to grow up our past and you know, work through our emotional life, if I’m emotionally stunted, because I grew up with a dad, who was stern, and you know, I didn’t know how to do my emotions.
To grow up, I’m going to have to learn how to feel my feelings and articulate them to you, right, in a non aggressive way. And it’s just amazing that so much of our I think mental health problems today are because of relational trauma. And then people do all kinds of work in spirituality say they meditate or they do yoga, but they’re not doing any relational work, which is why…
Mark Divine 12:10
Because it’s hard.
Jayson Gaddis 12:11
So many awake, people can be very developed on a on a vertical line and say, transcendent states, but they go home to their marriage and their disaster, right?
Mark Divine 12:20
Jayson Gaddis 12:21
Because they’re not developing themselves. I call it relationally. What would be another way for you to because you understand Wilber quite a bit here. How would you talk about it in terms of what I’m saying about relational development?
Mark Divine 12:32
So the integral model has these stages, right. So that’s one aspect says, Okay, we developed through these stages, but it’s not just your individuals up, teams or families have also the stages, institutions such as organizations have the stages, one of the reasons that I left the Navy because I, I recognize that I could never grow beyond the protector stage of development of the military. Because when you’re in an organization, it’s been you’re really committed to that’s very difficult to grow beyond the dominant stage, because it keeps you from trapping your energy down at that level. So I couldn’t stay in the bureaucracy in the military and grow.
So those are the five stages of development, but you also have multiple lines of intelligence or domains of being. And in our system, we call those the five mountains and anyone who’s tracked what I do, you know, those physical, mental, emotional, intuitional, spiritual, or you could also say psychosexual, you can also say, musical, you can also say, you know, whatever, right, whatever is a innate intelligence, well, those also can be developed. And he made this really profound claim. And it’s, and we validated that as if you develop these things together, like simultaneously, like if you combine music, with movement with breath with imagery, which would be multiple lines of development.
Jayson Gaddis 12:40
Mark Divine 12:41
Then you tend to unlock and accelerate your growth through the next two and through the next stage of development. So that’s profound. So we call the integral, well he called it integral life practice we just are then we just call it Unbeatable Mind.
Jayson Gaddis 12:52
Mark Divine 12:53
But we try to unlock accelerated growth and become self evolutionary. But the third thing that was profound, was he noticed through all his like this, Wilbur is really interesting, you know, and I’m in my PhD and you never see Wilbur cited is because he didn’t have a PhD.
Jayson Gaddis 14:08
Mark Divine 14:08
And so the academic community doesn’t take him seriously. Even though he’s the most profound philosopher and developmental psychologist.
Jayson Gaddis 14:17
By a longshot.
Mark Divine 14:17
He used to read like four or 500 books for every book that he wrote. And he noticed that all all the different authors and studies generally landed in one of four different frameworks or four different perspectives on life or on reality. One was the subjective, like lot of his work, both the way he wrote it, and even I put myself in this getting my work is like, firmly camped in that subjective. Whereas it’s, we’re really interested in how the mind works and and recognize that the outer world flows from or is a projection of the inner. That’s the subjective. He called that the I sphere.
Jayson Gaddis 14:53
Mark Divine 14:54
Or the I domain. And then there’s the individual objective, which is like the hackers and the peak performance and the behaviorist, and so like you’ve got cognitive behavioral therapy, let’s change the behavior, change the habits, change the doing this, and then that’ll somehow leak backwards and change the interior subjective state. And there’s some validity to that as well.
So that second domain or quadrant, he called the It, the singular or individual objective, versus the singular, individual subjective. So those were two. And so yeah, you can look at books in the bookshelf or leadership and be like, Oh, look, that guy’s talking about the objective, because he’s talking about leadership behaviors and traits, this guy is talking about the subjective, because he’s talking about the internal state of the leader in terms of vision and values and feel the potential. But then back to you, what you are talking about is we don’t operate alone in the world. Like, even within yourself, you’re not alone, because there’s the ego, and then there’s a higher self, right, you’re your spiritual self. And they can be in relationship, the wiser you get, the more you are in relationship with yourself. So that is also kind of in the We domain even though it’s like an We within the I, that’s getting kind of complex.
So we just say there’s a third quadrant or domain, which is the We, it’s like, what happens to this subjective state of two or more individuals, and you call that a relationship, but the relationship might be observed behavior, that would be the objective, and the culture or the attitudes or the felt state of what that relationship is like, the emotional part of it. That’s the subjective We. And so this is culture. So any books about culture, or the interior state of relationship, getting into the emotions of why you feel a certain way shadow work, all that in relationship with others is in the We domain, and then the ITS or its domain? The fourth is the structural behavioral side of the wheat of the collective. And that looks like the collective behavior, for instance, of a team or an organization, which shows up as rules and expectations and expectation probably a bit more subjective. But rules and behavioral guidelines, policies, procedures, structure.
Jayson Gaddis 17:01
Mark Divine 17:02
So he called those the I/We/It/&It’s, and so Wilbur was very much as I mentioned, his worldview was firmly planted in the I sphere. So he wrote most of his works from that perspective.
Jayson Gaddis 17:14
Mark Divine 17:15
He wasn’t a therapist, he wasn’t a trained psychologist, right? He wasn’t a team coach. And so he didn’t really have the language and speak much about the relational learning. So it’s why it’s really important for people like you and others to really take integral theory and then to and he even encourage this, right, he created the whole integral community said, Okay, here’s the basic framework. Now, go to town and start creating integral relationships and integral organizations and intergal leadership, build upon this theory, extend it, make it more come alive, right? Because everyone, like you can, as I was talking, you can think to yourself and like, oh, yeah, Jayson, you’re firmly in that We, Marks firmly in the I. All my behaviourist hackers and performance folks are all in the It sphere, you know, the
Jayson Gaddis 18:00
Mark Divine 18:00
Get it done, type. Now, as far as I’m concerned, what you say is absolutely right. But I would just reinforce what I said earlier that relationships extend first or start first with your relationship with yourself. Now you can use relationships with other work to back into it, right. But it always ends up the primary relationship ends up being the relationship with yourself. And others would say, well, now first, it’s your relationship with God. I say well, now, that’s your relationship with yourself.
Jayson Gaddis 18:28
Yeah, interesting. Let me let me push back on that just a minute, just for fun. So I come from the sort of vantage point because I’m such a relational guy, and I’m all about the I, I see the I is developed in relationship. So babies, for example, don’t develop in isolation, they develop in a contextual framework that’s relational, with other. So the first relationship is, you could maybe say it’s with the self. But to me, I think the developing ego in the developing baby, the infant in utero, the embryo and then coming out of the mother’s womb, and then developing the first couple of years is so critical, that how that early relationship goes is how that self gets developed.
Mark Divine 19:07
I agree. But in order to decondition and recondition rebuild the ego, that was unskillfully developed through those early years.
Jayson Gaddis 19:16
Mark Divine 19:16
It requires deep self awareness.
Jayson Gaddis 19:18
Mark Divine 19:18
And so that is the relationship with the self to go back. You can’t go back to your mom and say, Hey, let’s do a do over.
Jayson Gaddis 19:23
Mark Divine 19:23
You have to use your own self awareness to go back in, in relationship to your inner child or your child’s self and to re structure the ego development stuff that didn’t go so well.
Jayson Gaddis 19:33
Mark Divine 19:33
When there was less than nurturing happening.
Jayson Gaddis 19:35
Yeah, and I would say that that goes, I think the more efficient path…
Mark Divine 19:39
Is in relationship.
Jayson Gaddis 19:39
In healthy relationship is in relationship.
Mark Divine 19:42
I totally agree. That’s why well, and Ken Wilber would be very quick to say these co arise it’s not like at one moment you’re in the I sphere and then the next year in the performance or It sphere and then you know, maybe you slide down to the Weand later on, ya know, that all co arise simultaneously.
Jayson Gaddis 19:59
Yeah, I mean, I do see so many spiritualists bypass the relational development piece.
Mark Divine 20:04
But you know, can I share some perspective on that? So…
Jayson Gaddis 20:07
Mark Divine 20:07
From the spiritual development perspective, you have three primary ways that development has been done and, and they kind of relate to the four quadrants we talked about which Ken Wilber even collapses to three th I/We/&It. The interior of the I, the interior or the We the relational and then just the external world, the It. Anyway, so one is through the intellect, right this called Jnana yoga. And Jnana yoga is like, really smart people love to read Patanjali and Bhagavad Gita and study, you know, the Bible, and clarify their mind. And so…
Jayson Gaddis 20:43
Mark Divine 20:43
And so what you’re talking about a lot of people in the modern area era, and a lot of the people who do you call it emotional bypassing, have deep understanding of spiritual principles. And it’s a valid path, up to a point.
Jayson Gaddis 20:57
Mark Divine 20:58
The second path is bhakti, the path of the heart. This is the relational path that you’re talking about. And this is the deep devotion in relationship to God, or to Jesus, or to something higher than yourself, and then also finding, you know, a deep relationship with your fellow humans, because you recognize the sameness in them. And the bhakti path is profound. And it’s very powerful, because it comes from the heart and the heart is far more powerful than the brain in terms of your whole mind system. And it’s still incomplete. Because you can have all that heart and lacked the higher wisdom.
Jayson Gaddis 21:31
Yeah, you can like functioning in life, and like just holding down a job and your finances. And
Mark Divine 21:36
Yeah, you can 21:36
A lot artists hanging out in there.
Mark Divine 21:38
Yeah, easy to take advantage of, you may just have so much more to offer the world if you can also develop the Wisdom Center, which is the head. So we talked about the head, that heart and then the third is the hands. And that’s karma. That’s service. And you see a lot of that people just out in service. But if you’re in service and you haven’t developed your heart, or your wisdom center, then you can actually do harm.
Jayson Gaddis 21:59
Yeah. This is the classic codependent.
Mark Divine 22:01
That’s right. So it’s really important or like the do gooder pluralist equalizer who’s out there, because they feel like they’re virtue signaling, and they’ve got to do good. But they’re, they haven’t developed the heartfelt real connection to understand a good example, this is I was writing a paper on the international organizations and their relationship with the indigenous and it’s all based upon, you know, this sustainable development, and we’re going to help these people enter the real world. And the indigenous people are like, our world is not your world, we want you to just leave us alone so we can stored the rainforest. So we don’t destroy humanity.
Jayson Gaddis 22:35
Mark Divine 22:36
Anyway, so they haven’t been able to open their heart to see truly see and feel the perspective of other human beings, and then use wisdom to create policy that is more integrated in whole.
Jayson Gaddis 22:47
Mark Divine 22:47
So all three pairs, the head, heart and hands need to come together to truly develop as a whole person.
Jayson Gaddis 22:52
Yeah. Thank you. That’s a great, that’s a great synopsis there. Add that helps me as a heart more heart centered guy just makes a lot of sense.
Mark Divine 23:02
It’s just not easy for men to do the heart work. Right. The relational work.
Jayson Gaddis 23:06
Mark Divine 23:06
They don’t haven’t been modeled it. At least, you know, my generation, probably still yours as well. Just no modeling whatsoever. And also, the masculine energy is, you know, hey, we’re going to go fight. We’re going to, you know, F, and we’re going to.
Jayson Gaddis 23:20
Mark Divine 23:21
We’re going to protect.
Jayson Gaddis 23:21
Mark Divine 23:22
And so there’s not a lot of room for that touchy feely in there.
Jayson Gaddis 23:25
Yeah. The other F-feelings.
Yeah feelings. Exactly. So so important, though, that we move beyond that limited perspective. So what what works for you, like what, for guys are listening? Or the I guess, Jayson and Mark are right. But I don’t even want to go talk to a therapist scares the shit out of me.
Jayson Gaddis 23:41
Yeah, well, I mean, at some point, you got to get over it. Because depending on what you want, right, like a guy has to look, if I want good sex, if I want a heart connection, if I want my kids to trust me, if I want to be a trustworthy leader, most of us are more and more drawn to heart centered leaders, if especially if they’re male, like a male, who’s just head leader, and is unintegrated is, you know, that guy will probably always exist and have his followers. But I think there’s so many more people and women in particular drawn to heart centered male leaders. So if I’m a guy and I want these things in life, they’re going to require that I develop my interior around my relationships, and one of them is that your emotional health and your emotional, you got to D thaw, the emotional numbing that we’ve all been conditioned to is meant to be tough to fit in, to belong to achieve to play sports, to join the military. I mean, it’s all so like, I’m gonna close down my heart at the expense of you know, my health even to fit in to achieve and to grow. So I think guys have to really connect it to their own values or the values that they longed to embody. I mean, I think most guys if they’re honest, they they want a good, healthy relationship with a partner or their children or their team. And if that’s true, you’re going to need to develop yourself emotionally and relationally, you know.
Mark Divine 25:10
I talk a lot about authenticity and authentic leadership is even a thing.
Jayson Gaddis 25:14
Mark Divine 25:15
Because I see even people who come into Unbeatable Mind my program, a lot of guys like they take to the emotional side. Like, it’s like, they just add some tactics. Right, if I just learned some words and have these practices, okay, I’m going to do active listening. I’m going to do it, right.
Jayson Gaddis 25:31
Mark Divine 25:31
And they may even do it with their team, but the team seeing right through it.
Jayson Gaddis 25:35
Yeah, exactly, because it’s a technique.
Mark Divine 25:37
It is a beingness, right. It’s not something you do.
Jayson Gaddis 25:40
Yeah. Yeah. It’s like, give me the three steps to empathy. So my wife will get off my back. No, it doesn’t work that way.
Mark Divine 25:46
It doesn’t work that way. How do we move from doing to being in relationships?
Jayson Gaddis 25:50
I think it’s sort of like we have to get honest again, about the impact of our doing impact. I love that word. Because it’s everything we do in life has an impact. And if I’m an asshole, in my home, there’s an impact on the vibe in my home, my kids feel it, my wife feels it. If I’m an asshole, on Verizon, because I’m on hold or, you know, in line somewhere, people feel that, you know, it doesn’t feel good to be around.
So I think that’s the first step to empathy is seeing that, and actually appreciating and understanding even cognitively first, that Oh, my way of being actually potentially negatively impacts these people. They all get kind of irritated, they all get scared of me. They get bristly. That’s a big insight, if you can see that your way of being has an impact on others. Like that’s a great entry point to being like, wow, I am a relational being the things I say and do and how I walk in the world does matter. I want to be more considerate, because if you want to be successful in leadership, as a relational leader, or in your home, you’ve got to be sensitive to impact and you got to consider other people’s feelings as you walk through the world. So I think that’s can be a great move to see that as a step toward being.
Mark Divine 27:04
Yeah, and that’s why an emotional coach or therapist is so valuable, because oftentimes, your wife, family, peers, bosses, subordinates aren’t going to say anything to you.
Jayson Gaddis 27:14
Mark Divine 27:15
They’re afraid to or maybe think, well, it’s not, you’re not going to change.
Jayson Gaddis 27:19
Mark Divine 27:20
So you need someone to hold the mirror up and say, Mark, this is actually…
Jayson Gaddis 27:24
Yeah, this is what it looks like to somebody else. My first 360 assessment was like, getting hit over the head with a club.
Jayson Gaddis 27:30
Yeah. Those are great. Yeah. I mean, it’s like in your home, you get a 360 every day, if you’re you have an honest partner, it’s like, you can ask your family and closest friends, hey, what’s it like to be in relationship with me? And you could say, don’t hold back and be really honest. I mean, that’s why I love marriage and family as kind of a spiritual path, sort of a householder path, because it’s very hard to hide, and it’s so obvious where your blind spots and weak spots are. And then it’s a choice. Do I want to compartmentalize those and keep trucking through and blaming everybody else? Or do I want to actually soften a little bit here and be receptive to the feedback and the impact that I’m causing on others and start to develop myself over time?
Mark Divine 28:12
Right? Do you think that at some level, you know, workaholism, or just like, always being too busy or too important, right, to sit down and have those conversations is actually just a defense that is part of that armoring up, where you’re just like..
Jayson Gaddis 28:27
Mark Divine 28:27
I don’t want to have those conversations. So I’m just going to make myself too busy.
Jayson Gaddis 28:31
Yeah, too busy, too overwhelmed. I don’t have time. I think all those narratives and those, those are deflections away from this incredible opportunity to be still and slow it down downshift a bit, you know, I think so what do you think?
Mark Divine 28:43
I do, too, and I think that the less busy I become, the more productive I am. It’s pretty uncanny. And so I try to help people experience that themselves by just decluttering decommitting, you know, keep it simple, silly, simplifying their life, spending more time in relationship with their family, and also just themselves in silence. And suddenly you you look at your life differently, because you shift that perspective, especially if you have a stage shift, because of this, powering down and disengaging from all those former structures. Guess what it was your thought that got you into those structures and all that commitment and everything. So you have to kind of think your way out of it by simplifying and deconstructing. And then you have like the tabla rasa, you’re sitting there with now space for something new. And that new thing usually is much more powerful.
Jayson Gaddis 29:30
Yeah, you’re you’re talking to me, I mean, that’s that’s been an edge for me for sure is, particularly in the last year or two, as I’ve downshifted a bit to try to access my creativity more and from a place of beingness. The only way I can do that as if I declutter, you know, decommit, as you were saying all the things so I have space, but then in this space, it’s really uncomfortable.
Mark Divine 29:54
Jayson Gaddis 29:55
Right at first, it’s like…
Mark Divine 29:56
I should be doing something. I’m not being productive.
Jayson Gaddis 29:58
Yeah, I should be doing I can’t do that. wasting precious time, if I could be so productive if I would take this fucking hour and you’re spot on, I mean, and this is where again, I think relationships can, can help us. Because if we really want to make contact with another person and look in their eyes and just take a breath, someone we care about and be with them, it, it requires a beingness, you actually have to do that. Otherwise, you’re always looking at your phone, you’re talking to them out of the side of your face, and you’re moving on and you’re moving really fast. And it’s it’s sort of that world we live in.
Mark Divine 30:27
This is so important for fathers, mothers as well, because there’s obviously plenty of women who listen to this podcast, but women are generally better at being present with their kids than men are, right. And when I see guys who are kind of with their kids at the ball game or park or something, and they’re on their phone, and it’s not what your kids want or need to talk a little bit about that just your perspective on parenting and relating it to presents.
Jayson Gaddis 30:54
I mean, you’re hitting a chord here, because my wife and I just were at the gym this morning, first thing and a family showed up. So a family of five and they had three kids. And it’s really rare to see kids at this gym, because it’s a functional movement, sort of PT gym. So anyway, they they’re in this kind of waiting room area, and we’re leaving, we’re totally gassed, you know, just sweating and just leaving. We both love children. So we see these, this little young family, we’re like, oh, that’s so cute. Like, oh my god, there’s kids in a gym. And as we get closer, the dad pulls out the tablets. And just hands each of the kids the screen, and the kids aren’t even looking at this, this cool gym that they’ve never been in and asking questions. They’re just like, oh, where’s my tablet, I’m gonna head down headphones on and I’m gonna play a video game or I’m gonna watch something and we both our heart just sank.
Because this is the new normal now. And I just, I just feel like it’s the new pacifier is to hand your kid a screen at the airport or on a plane or.
Look, I get it. I do it once in a while. Because there is no other option where it does help. But it’s like the last resort for us because we’re so into, because we’ve seen the benefits for raising our kids for 14 years now. The magic that our kids walk in with in their imagination is so vivid, and we were incredibly limited around phones and screen time. And it’s been really beautiful to watch who they are becoming. Because they can make eye contact with you. They can talk to adults, when they walk into a new place. They’re like it. They’re like, well, this is fun. Let’s go look around. There’s a sense of curiosity and wonder. And I start to see the the incredibly big cost to handing your kids a screen, particularly when they’re stressed. Because the most effective way to actually de stress a kid when they’re upset is through another person to co regulate into eye contact. To hi, I’m right here, honey, what’s up to validate their feelings. And so when we consistently resort to the screen for regulation, those kids are going to turn into adults who can’t regulate in an adult relationship when they’re triggered in conflict. They’re going to be reaching for devices and getting away from because the eye contact is too confronting. It’s too intense. No one’s ever seen me. No one’s ever validated my feelings. So why would I go there? It’s so unreliable. I think it’s not good man. Obviously, it’s I’m a big proponent of like, let’s be a little more relational here. And it’s I’m trying but I’m a little nervous actually about where it’s going.
Mark Divine 33:19
I totally agree with you. Yes. Feels like a tsunami coming toward us now with AI and virtual reality and augmented reality.
Jayson Gaddis 33:25
Mark Divine 33:26
I don’t know what’s on the other side of this. Because I agree with you. I have this sense that there’s some forces that are just like, marshaling humanity, almost like a matrix into some sort of like, digital slavery.
Jayson Gaddis 33:39
Mark Divine 33:40
That sounds harsh, but I mean, what I mean by that is what you just described, when you rely on these devices, for everything for your entertainment, to keep you distracted from the reality of life and your relationships, then you lose your autonomy. And if you’ve lost your autonomy, then you’re a slave to something and somebody is on the other end of that rope.
Jayson Gaddis 33:56
That’s right. You think you’re in control, but you’re you’re really not, you’re being controlled, in a way, let me get your quick take because you mentioned AI, I had, you know, someone I listened to some doom and gloom podcasts about AI and it’s gonna fuck us all up and like going out in the world and, and they were really intelligently done and well thought out, and they’re extremely thoughtful. But I got a little scared. And then I talked to another friend who’s an integral person, and they’re like, they had this cool integral perspective, which is, well, if AI truly develops itself, it’s going to become integral, which would mean it’s not actually going to kill the world. It’s so people who are judging and AI, they’re just projecting wherever they’re at in their development onto AI, thinking that it’s going to just be a protector stage or whatever, or survivor stage. And actually, if you think about human consciousness, the more it develops, the more can hold in complexity. And the more especially if it’s heart mind, hands, and it’s like, you know, it’s this loving state of being so I’m curious what you think?
Mark Divine 34:56
I’m a positive person in general. So I’m inclined to have that view. I look You know, my view is everything is a play of consciousness. And we are single addresses or single points of consciousness, you know, experiencing what we believe to be a separate individuated reality. But that’s just considered a dream, right in this spiritual tradition language. So that means that artificial intelligence is also being brought up as part of consciousness. So it may not be self aware, sentient like a human being, but it it may attain self awareness or sentience. And if it’s got access to all knowledge, then you’re right, it’s going to have access to all the beauty and goodness, and it’s going to see the destructive power of dark side of technology.
Jayson Gaddis 35:39
Mark Divine 35:39
And my sense is, it will probably work to eliminate the destructive because it also doesn’t want that to destroy it, right? It’ll be conscious that life is precious, and it won’t want to destroy itself. And furthermore, human beings, again, depending upon your perspective, the broader your perspective, the more power of your mind, you have to understand most human beings are using literally like 1% of their or less of their mental power. And so you look at the advanced Yogi’s in the advanced sages, and advanced martial artists and those who throughout history had been tapping into lots of mental power, the extraordinary power that the human being has total control over the physical universe, even control over life itself. And most people listening just can’t believe this until they’re completed discount what I’m saying. But until you examine it and become a N=1 kind of study, then you won’t believe this. Unless you have direct contact with someone who actually has those types of powers or develop those, you know, that skill. If you’re from a culture like India, or even China, and you’ve come into contact with, you know, serious advanced Qigong masters or Yogi’s, you tend to believe it a lot more. And so those cultures would just be nodding their head being like, yeah, Marks telling talking the truth.
There are Yogi’s on this planet, who are hundreds of years old, and they’re Qigong masters, who are hundreds of years old, and that used to be much more common 1000s of years ago.
Jayson Gaddis 37:05
Mark Divine 37:05
Because you had, they had a lot more time to train and less distraction.
Jayson Gaddis 37:08
Mark Divine 31:09
Less negative energy on the planet. So AI is not going to look at human beings as these dog like creatures with limited potential, it’s going to be like, Oh, my God, most of these people have no idea.
Jayson Gaddis 37:20
Mark Divine 37:21
The potential we’re sitting on.
Jayson Gaddis 37:23
Mark Divine 37:23
And I think AI is going to want to work with us to bring out the fullest potential of both human and artificial intelligence in partnership. That’s a utopian or intergolous view, does it not mean that there will be some programmed limitations, you know, in AI, because you’re right, the, the initial programmers and the information that feeds like these large language models that are going to be found that foundation, you know, it could be that you have some AI, that that’s operating out of these lower stage that hasn’t had the time to develop that. That’s the dangerous phase that we’re in the earliest phase of AI when it’s acting like an adolescent is the most dangerous.
Jayson Gaddis 37:59
Yeah, yeah, completely. I mean, it needs to develop right, it has to go through its stages. I’m curious what you say, when, you know, when I first heard about integral years ago, there was this superiority, almost arrogance in some of the Integralists.
Mark Divine 38:12
Jayson Gaddis 38:12
I get it, you know, now I’m like…
Mark Divine 38:14
Most integral theory people are operating out of that equalizer phase, projecting themselves into the internal phase, or stage.
Jayson Gaddis 38:22
And again, I think we can look at their relational development, I’m thinking of the people. Like, you’re not integral, sorry. Anyway, there can be an arrogance, that can be a turnoff, but I really like talking to people like you, because you, you have integrated it to, for lack of a better term into your own life experience. And you’re offering it to people in a palatable way that they can digest.
Mark Divine 38:46
Right, what your pointing to like, it’s really important to understand, like, what are some of the tells or markers of an evolved a whole person who’s operating at that integral level and forget about labels and names and everything. First of all, it’s not the magnetic preacher type. Right. Who knows all that? That’s, that’s like the head, but haven’t developed the heart. Or they’ve got the heart, but they haven’t developed the full head and hands piece. Yeah. So like, anytime you see someone out there who might have a huge following, and they’ve got these piercing magnetic eyes, and you’re and they just very seductive with their teachings. That’s not it. That’s ego.
Jayson Gaddis 39:25
Mark Divine 39:25
So the most evolved, humans need the least from anybody or anything. They’re not trying to be anybody anymore. In fact, that’s what the saying is, like, you have to develop your ego in order to surrender the ego. You have to be somebody before you can be nobody. But if you’re still trying to be somebody, then that’s not it. And now it doesn’t mean that you can’t be integral or highly evolved in whole and still be a teacher. But the organization’s success and how many people and followers you have and how much money you make is completely irrelevant.
In fact, someone else would be managing it And you expect it to get fucked up?
Jayson Gaddis 40:01
Mark Divine 40:01
Right, like Ramana Maharshi did not create his ashram, that’s one of the biggest, most visited ashrams in India. He didn’t create the ashram, he just sat there, and they build it around him. And he didn’t stop anyone, because he knew the silly to stop it. Because, you know, humans will play out their dreams, and their dramas, and that was their business and his business was just sit there. And if people wanted to talk to him, they would come talk to him. So total humility is a sign of an evolved person, abject, utter humility, do everything for you or in service, but But um, they’re not expecting anything in return.
Jayson Gaddis 40:34
Let me just challenge that for a second in terms of the humility thing. So if we go, let’s call it humility and pride might be the opposite or something…
Mark Divine 40:42
By the way, just, just to say something on that there are no opposites from an integral or an evolved perception.
Jayson Gaddis 40:48
Once they get balanced or neutralized.
Mark Divine 40:50
That’s it, there’s no opposite. So when you’re because the the point is that you’ve integrated unity consciousness, you recognize that everything is the same Advaita, which is the Eastern tradition means not to, it doesn’t mean non dual, like, oh, all is one. It means no, it’s not one, but it’s not two either. It’s both and, and so the integrated person operates from that both in perspective, and in the both and, it sees duality in the material, but it doesn’t operate with duality. It just operates with more light and love or less light in love.
Jayson Gaddis 41:23
Yeah, I mean, I trained with a mentor for many years, I still really like this person. And, you know, he was the first person to teach me about kind of polarities that in any given moment, when we’re triggered in an emotional state, we split into the polarization.
Mark Divine 41:37
We get triggered into a polarity, yeah, this or that. Right.
Jayson Gaddis 41:38
Pride and shame, right and wrong, good and bad. And I get that there’s developmental aspects there, too. But it was really helpful for me, because then when I quote, heal, or I transcend, and include I move into a place of love, say, I’m accepting both and then they’re the polarities, no longer…
Mark Divine 41:55
you have room for both the player to dissolve.
Jayson Gaddis 41:57
Mark Divine 41:57
In fact, I don’t remember who said this. But the ability to hold two contradictory ideas in your head is an example of wisdom. And hold both is possibly true, because they are.
Jayson Gaddis 42:06
Mark Divine 42:07
Or recognize that they are and they aren’t.
Jayson Gaddis 42:09
Mark Divine 42:10
From that perspective, nothing’s true.
Jayson Gaddis 42:12
This is probably a green meme thing, in terms of post modernism, but people tend to think they’re being relational, but they’re just taking the other pole, right? I’m more left or more liberal, or I’m more I’m, quote, more open than you are. And it’s like, no, you’re actually just took the opposite position here. The relational position to me is dialogue, which is to hold both.
Mark Divine 42:34
To hold both, and ultimately to recognize that the world is created in the mind, and that this co created world is actually not your world. And everyone’s thinking that that world out there is the world that other people are experiencing. And it’s not, there’s not one world, there’s 8 billion worlds, from a human perspective. And then the cocreated reality is just that shaped by the prevailing narratives. This is why it’s so important to realize how shaped you are, by the whoever controls the narrative.
Jayson Gaddis 43:04
The media, the academics, institutions, the the prevailing dialogue, whether it’s, you know, in the old days coming from the church, which still lingers, or from the state, which is dominant now. that is all just mental training. And so you’re not free until you recognize all that mental training and deconstructing it and then empty your cup, the Zen master would say.
Jayson Gaddis 43:24
Mark Divine 43:24
And allow for just newness, the newness of the moment, moment to moment moment, instead of just living from memory and projecting that in the future, based upon the narrative that you’ve been trained.
Jayson Gaddis 43:32
Yeah, it’s my like, getting outside and getting away from the screen.
Mark Divine 43:36
100% unplugged, go into nature and just sit there and see what happens. Magic happens after a while.
Jayson Gaddis 43:42
I have a question for you. As we start to wrap up, we talked I think about this, if my memory serves me and sort of victimhood, that, you know, there’s some people, for example, that aren’t going to be able to do your program successfully, right, because they don’t want to, they can’t, won’t develop themselves, they just won’t do it. And we could get into why that is, but it seems like a smaller number of people, but there are people that are into this kind of work that are studying with you or me or, but they for whatever reason, they can’t get out of the maze of their own kind of victimhood. I’m curious what you would say, what you notice when you work with people, and over the years?
Mark Divine 44:20
I agree with you, and it relates to exactly what I was just talking about is they’re so conditioned to think that they’re not responsible for aspects of their lives.
Jayson Gaddis 42:48
Mark Divine 42:49
And and largely because of, you know, because my father did this, I was abused, right? Or I grew up in alcoholic family or I was sexually assaulted or abused. That’s just who I am. And so you don’t ask me to change that. Well, that’s part of your conditioning. In fact, I would submit that’s probably that’s the main reason you are here as a human being is to have that experience and then to figure out how you’re going to respond to it this time around, the bigger, badder, worse, hurt more horrible the thing, the more spot on I am that that’s why you’re in this human form right now. And you’re either gonna play the victim and have to repeat it in some form in the next lifetime, or you’re going to take responsibility. My friend Jocko says, Take Extreme Ownership of everything in your life. Yeah. And find the silver lining find the growth through that.
Jayson Gaddis 45:15
Mark Divine 45:16
It’s not easy, though, right? It’s no one’s said it’d be easy. We just said it’d be worth it.
Jayson Gaddis 45:19
In psychology, there’s, you know, you’ve probably heard of the personality disordered person. But it’s a legitimate thing that zero to three, there’s an injury, there’s such an insult to the personality that it makes it very hard like to develop is an annihilatory.
Mark Divine 45:31
Jayson Gaddis 45:32
And so some of these individuals actually won’t develop because it’s such an annihilation. I mean, it feels that way, it’s not going to be most likely, if they find out, but it feels so annihilatory that they they go on lockdown on their position, right, their narrative.
Mark Divine 45:46
And we have a lot of empathy for those people. And again, I view it spiritually. And that was, that was a souls choice. It sounds harsh, but it’s not. That was a soul’s choice, for whatever reason, and it might have been for somebody else’s development. It might have been for the parents or for you know, so.
Jayson Gaddis 46:01
Mark Divine 46:01
Yeah, it’s a slippery slope to talk about this without setting up the framework cause people, you just they’re gonna project their stage of development onto a conversation like that.
Jayson Gaddis 46:11
you know, you’re blaming the victim and all the things. Yeah, I did a post on the difference between fault and responsibility. A few weeks back, and man, I just got
Mark Divine 46:19
slammed, of course.
Jayson Gaddis 46:23
Just, it was a good education.
Mark Divine 46:25
Jayson Gaddis 46:25
Cool, Mark. Well, what’s anything that’s exciting you want to share that you’re up to, before we wrap up here?
Mark Divine 46:30
We are relaunching a 30 day program that I did a couple of years ago called The Unbeatable Challenge. And it was one of those, my way and our team’s way in which we’re trying to change that is to like, create something new. Whoo, put it out there. And then we move on to the next thing. And we literally forget about this awesome program.
Jayson Gaddis 46:50
The cool thing.
Mark Divine 46:52
So we’re bringing it back. It’s called the Unbeatable Challenge is 30 days. 15 minutes a day of training with me just video and some worksheets. And it’s extraordinary. If you imagine just 15 minutes of learning all these skills every day, 30 days, we teach you all the breathing, the visualisation of big four skills, breathing visualization, the positive internal dialogue, feeding the courage wolf, front sight focus, micro goals, and our integrated movement practice and daily rituals. Pretty much the whole foundation course, which is a year long program, I packed into 30 days, 15 minutes of that K.I.S.S.
Jayson Gaddis 47:22
That’s so cool.
Mark Divine 47:23
So we’re launching that again in early August, at least my side of the show probably won’t launch until later this year. How about you? What’s going on your, your neck of the woods?
Jayson Gaddis 47:32
Well, I got excited when you were talking about your research in grad school, are they you’re getting your PhD and stuff. And I was like, oh, man, I need to someday might do that. But I would love research on the our nine month training. So I just continue to just love seeing people go through that course called relationship mastery.
Mark Divine 47:50
Couples go through it or individuals?
Jayson Gaddis 47:51
Individuals, we once in a while we have a couple go through it. But it’s mostly individuals. It’s individual work in the context of relationship. Right,
Mark Divine 47:57
Right. Oh, that’s profound. And that that’s awesome.
Jayson Gaddis 47:59
Yeah. So it’s really fun to see people just get a permanent upgrade, and actually have it stick.
Mark Divine 48:04
Maybe just have them do like the emotional awareness, emotional intelligence assessment before and after.
Jayson Gaddis 48:11
Mark Divine 48:12
And then just gather that data.
Jayson Gaddis 48:13
Yeah, we used to do a quiz before and after. That was just anecdotal data, but it was cool.
Mark Divine 48:18
But use a valid assessment, then you can say, Yeah, I mean, on emotional intelligence, you have 66% improvement.
Jayson Gaddis 48:25
Mark Divine 48:25
Another one would be the standard was that there was a really well validated resiliency test, which tests like self efficacy and, you know, ability to manage your stress, those types of things. A lot of that those outcomes accrue through emotional development, obviously. That’s great.
Jayson Gaddis 48:41
Yeah, so stoked about that. And then, you know, we have one more month of summer over here. So a couple of trips with the kids and the family. My wife, I’m just grateful for another month of time with them before school.
Mark Divine 48:53
Me too.I just finished up my current semester submitted my last project last night. So I have six months off, I feel like free flow. Oh, we’re heading to my final two semesters. So I’m going to enjoy the rest of the summer, too.
Jayson Gaddis 49:03
That’s great. I’m really psyched for you, man. Just the PhD and just I know you’re, you know, putting your work out there. And I don’t know, it’s it’s awesome.
Mark Divine 49:10
It was a lot of work. You know.
Jayson Gaddis 49:12
Mark Divine 49:13
I liken it to like Navy SEAL training. Oh, I’m gonna be really happy when it’s over. And I get that Trident. But while you’re in it’s a kick in the junk. Awesome.
Jayson Gaddis 49:22
Mark Divine 49:22
Well, Jayson, thank you so much for your time. It was really awesome. chatting with you again.
Jayson Gaddis 49:26
Yeah. Likewise, Mark. Great hanging out with you.
Mark Divine 49:30
And I love conversation with Jayson. That was just awesome. We went deep on Integral theory and emotional development. Go check out his book Getting to Zero: How to Work Through Conflict in Your High Stakes Relationship. Thanks very much, Jayson. Shownotes will be up on our website, YouTube, be up on the YouTube channel. You can reach me at Twitter at Mark Divine and on Instagram or Facebook at real Mark Divine, quick plug for my newsletter Divine Inspiration, which comes out every Tuesday, where I’ve got conversations like this one with Jayson, summarize it on my blog. I’ve got a book number I think I’ve got some practices. It’s just super cool, super cool newsletter. So check it out. Go to MarkDivine.com to subscribe and share with your friends. Thanks so much to Geoff Haskell and Jason Sanderson and Catherine Divine, who helped produce this podcast and bring incredible guests like Jayson to you and also produce our newsletter. Reviews and ratings are very helpful. If you haven’t done so please consider doing so. Wherever you listen, especially Apple or Amazon or Spotify. It helps us keep up in the rankings and others find us so thank you so much. Thanks for being part of the change you want to see in the world. We can do that at scale now. So let’s do that. But it all starts with you. And I’m here to help our team is here to help at unbeatable mind. could check out our revamped 30 Day Challenge, just 15 minutes a day of training with me video and a little bit of work and you can be transformed in 30 days. Check it out at UnbeatableMind.com Hooyah!
Transcribed by Catherine and https://otter.ai