[00:00:58] Mark Divine: He’s got a Master’s of Science in Psychology and Neuroscience of Mental Health with honors from King’s College in London. And he studied the effects of psychedelics on the mind and the potential for these experiences to serve as a catalyst for positive transformation. His work is motivated by a profound desire to help people navigate the challenging terrain of the psychedelic experience and to emerge from it with a deeper sense of purpose, connection, and understanding.

[00:01:21] Mark Divine: He’s also the author of bestseller, Psychedelics for Everyone, A Beginner’s Guide to These Powerful Medicines for Anxiety, Depression, Addiction, PTSD, and Expanding Consciousness. Before I get into the show, I wanted you to know that I’m opening up slots for our Unbeatable Coach certification and our Unbeatable Team certification.

[00:01:37] Mark Divine: The Unveiled Team is an amazing year of transformational training. It’s where I direct my full attention and time in coaching and training. I don’t do it anywhere else. It’s here in the Unveiled Team that I can give my full attention to help those deeply committed to transforming their lives. to become uncommon in a world that you know is rapidly collapsing into fear, moral relativism, and mediocrity.[00:02:00]

[00:02:00] Mark Divine: We meet virtually every month as a team, come together four times during the year for three days of powerful in person training and practice, and I’m here to help you break through any barriers and to crush all of your goals for 2024. So, if you’re ready to go deep with me and willing to do the work, I can guarantee amazing strides will be made.

[00:02:18] Mark Divine: Go to unbeatableteam. com and unbeatablecoaching. com to learn more about these unbeatable events. Now, back to the show.

[00:02:30] Mark Divine: Matt, thanks so much for joining me today on the Mark Divine show. Stoked to have you here, buddy.

[00:02:33] Matt Zemon: Mark Psych to be here. Thanks for bringing me on.

[00:02:35] Mark Divine: Your primary interest is the healing transformational power of psychedelics and something that I’ve experimented with because of my veteran status and both at a personal level to be, um, like preventative maintenance, you know, thinking about like what we’re learning about traumatic brain injury, TBI and some of the potential catastrophic effects if you don’t address that.

[00:02:58] Mark Divine: And now there’s the seeing that many [00:03:00] SEALs, special operators, Marines, you know, with the constant. The hammering of their brain through even just firearms training through jumping through explosives through combat. There’s not a single one of us who doesn’t have some level of tbi in my opinion, you know, and that’s not a medical Statement that’s an opinion, but geez just think about it, right?

[00:03:18] Mark Divine: You know an average seal platoon would fire more rounds the entire marine corps and we’d use these silly little, you know Like rubber earplugs that did nothing. In fact, there’s a big lawsuit against that company because they did nothing You But you know, TBI and trauma leads to symptoms of depression, anxiety, you know, loss of motivation, mood disorders, right?

[00:03:40] Mark Divine: And so people come and say, well, I fixed my mood disorder. Okay, psychedelics can help with that, but it also can be a gateway into greater healing, right? For traumatic brain injuries that were, are often accompanying with those issues, right? Or accompanied by those issues. It’s an important conversation.

[00:03:54] Mark Divine: So let’s bring back to you. What’s your origin story, man? I mean, where are you from? And, [00:04:00] and like, give us a little bit of the journey that got you to, you know, deeply into this work.

[00:04:04] Matt Zemon: I’ll give the journey. But first, I mean, just thank you for normalizing this conversation, Mark. I mean, you, you, you’re an everyday person.

[00:04:12] Matt Zemon: And when you bring up conversations like this, I think it makes other people feel it’s okay to talk about things like mental health, like traumatic brain injury, like depression, like anxiety, like psychedelic use, like antidepressants aren’t working, those types of things. So it’s, uh, I think it’s important that you’re doing this and I appreciate you doing this.

[00:04:28] Mark Divine: Yeah, thank you. I agree. What’s going on in the world, and especially in this country, is insane how many people are suffering from emotional and mental trauma, and it’s being layered upon, right? The thing about the Israeli community right now is it gets trauma, just layered upon trauma, generational trauma, and now it’s getting triggered again with what’s going on in Israel.

[00:04:46] Mark Divine: You have to deal with that, right? And in order to deal with it, you have to have conversations about it. And you have to admit that you’re not wrong or weak for being traumatized. That’s just part of being human. In fact, it comes with the freaking [00:05:00] basic operating instructions of being human. You will be traumatized.

[00:05:03] Mark Divine: And part of the whole human journey is to learn how to deal with it so you can grow and evolve.

[00:05:07] Matt Zemon: And I don’t need to compare my trauma to your trauma or anybody else’s. It’s my trauma. Right. There’s no ranking

[00:05:12] Mark Divine: system, no leaderboard in trauma.

[00:05:16] Matt Zemon: Exactly. So what about you? What’s your story? Came about here in a roundabout way.

[00:05:22] Matt Zemon: I was a non drug user. I really had no drug experience. I wasn’t a big drinker, just an entrepreneur. And some friends invited me to do a guided magic mushroom journey. And, uh, I, I was reluctant.

[00:05:34] Mark Divine: By the way, I don’t like to refer to psychedelics as drugs, because I don’t think they are. A drug is something that’s manufactured, unless you want to put, like, Isergic acid in that category.

[00:05:42] Mark Divine: It’s manufactured by man. But a, a mushroom is grown by Mother Earth. Tank fans and ayahuasca and ibogaine, sure, absolutely. Ayahuasca is, uh, grown by Mother Earth, and ibogaine, same thing, it’s a bark. Sticking on that for a second, just cause this

[00:05:55] Matt Zemon: is, it’s fun to have someone who knows what they’re talking about.

[00:05:59] Matt Zemon: We get into an [00:06:00] argument over over the separateness of nature. So when we start talking about MDMA or LSD or ketamine, yes, they are synthetic, but then they’re also made by nature if we consider ourselves part of nature. So it’s a, it’s right. Yeah, we can go around and around on that. Yeah,

[00:06:15] Mark Divine: I, and I agree with that and I, I would sustain that argument, but like if you said, okay, here’s a list and you had mother nature here and then produced by man over here.

[00:06:24] Mark Divine: Sure. I would choose mother nature. Not to say there aren’t benefits for pharmacological produced things, there are, but we don’t understand all the interdependencies and, and, you know, the complexity of the whole system the way Gaia does. There are consequences if you’re not careful.

[00:06:43] Matt Zemon: I was sticking with this for a second.

[00:06:44] Matt Zemon: Psilocybin mushrooms grow in every continent except Antarctica. And we have shaman in Siberia and tribal leaders in Africa using different psychedelics. I mean, the mother nature has produced these. compounds, these medicines for thousands and thousands of years. Yeah. And [00:07:00] we just, as a Western society, we have turned away from them for the last at least 50 years, but arguably longer than that.

[00:07:07] Matt Zemon: And um, there’s a lot here for us if we allow ourselves to, uh, to move in. I have

[00:07:12] Mark Divine: my theories on that, but you know, they quickly probably spiral into kind of like territory that we shouldn’t go on in a podcast, but I’d be fun to talk about, get your perspective. Let me come back maybe a little later. It’s like.

[00:07:23] Mark Divine: Why? Like, why were they shut down in the 60s? I think they were a threat, a major threat to the establishment, right? The fact that people are waking up all over the place and, you know, basically finding that they’re not disconnected and don’t need to be fearful victims and cogs in this consumer machine, right?

[00:07:40] Mark Divine: And so they’re literally about ready to throw off all that shit. And psychedelics were one way avenue to shut that down. So is war. Anyways, there’s a lot more that goes on behind the scenes that people are ever willing to admit or to even allow. But you got to see

[00:07:56] Matt Zemon: some of the behind the scenes in your, in your previous career.

[00:07:58] Matt Zemon: You, you know more [00:08:00] than most. I did, yeah. What goes on behind the scenes. And there’s other layers behind that. There’s

[00:08:04] Mark Divine: layers upon layers, yep.

[00:08:06] Matt Zemon: So back to you, your entrepreneurship. Alright, entrepreneur, got invited to do this guided mushroom journey. I did it, and completely changed the way I look and interact with the world.

[00:08:16] Matt Zemon: Um, in this first journey, I reconnected with my mom who died when I was 22, she was 49. What

[00:08:21] Mark Divine: did that look like to you? You mean, you emotionally felt her, or did you

[00:08:25] Matt Zemon: Oh my god, it was so beautiful. I could feel her next to me and I could almost pull like a cord from her to me to my children and realize that we are all connected, and that she’s not gone, that she’s just in this other space.

[00:08:38] Matt Zemon: And, I mean, I gave up on any type of faith, any type of, uh, I just kind of went on living after she died. The Mr. And this is after we were talking more than 30 years, or almost 30 years. And I said, wow, okay, I can see that there’s another thing here. This is amazing. And I felt so safe and loved in that experience and then realized, oh my goodness, I [00:09:00] don’t feel safe and loved in my everyday life.

[00:09:02] Matt Zemon: And what’s going on with that? I realized I was scared of dying. I realized I was scared of being poor and making some of the same mistakes my alcoholic father made and towards towards the end of his life. Insight after insight. So I ended up within weeks at someone else running my business. And within months, I was back in school to get a master’s in psychology and neuroscience of mental health, focused on psychedelic medicine, and then also traveling around, trying a number of different.

[00:09:29] Matt Zemon: Psychedelic medicines with different types of facilitators from shaman and Titus to MDs and PhDs and learning about different philosophies and how these things worked. And, uh, all that brought me forward to today with a couple of books, a book called psychedelics for everyone and then a journal for preparation and integration called beyond the trip and doing everything I can kind of to help the safe and sacred practices.

[00:09:55] Matt Zemon: What I’m mostly interested in with a psychedelic medicine. Or entheogens, I [00:10:00] would actually call them, since I believe that they’re, they’re for connecting to, to a higher power, to the power within.

[00:10:04] Mark Divine: Could you just give me a perspective on what you think is happening with a medicine or, what do you call it, an entheogen?

[00:10:12] Mark Divine: Entheogen, sure. Entheogen, yeah, like enthuse, fill you with spirit. Exactly. What’s happening? I mean, what, what’s going on biochemically, neurologically, spiritually? I know it might be different, but let’s talk about in the general sense. I know that each one has a different kind of experience. In general sense, the first thing

[00:10:30] Matt Zemon: that these psychedelic medicines do.

[00:10:32] Matt Zemon: Is they quiet down what’s called is your default mode network. So think of that as that inner narrator that’s constantly saying you’re not enough. You’re not worthy. You need to do more. So it quiets that down. That’s feels like the way of the world is lifted off your shoulder. How does it do that? The chemicals.

[00:10:48] Matt Zemon: That’s kind of what the medicine does. So I didn’t. I can’t explain more than that, but it does, that’s the part of the brain that gets quieted down. It allows neurons then to fire that haven’t fired in a [00:11:00] long time. So there’s brain imaging scans where you can see kind of a normal brain and then a brain on psilocybin and you can see it’s just really lit up.

[00:11:09] Matt Zemon: The importance of that piece, so now you have the anxiety lifted off your shoulders on the first piece and now you have these neurons firing together that don’t normally This is like, as we get older, we start getting into repetitive thinking patterns. Well, when your brain lights up like this, you’re able to think in ways that you don’t normally think.

[00:11:27] Matt Zemon: And that can be incredibly, um, freeing for people who are caught in loops. Loops of anxiety, loops of depression, loops of behavior.

[00:11:36] Mark Divine: I’ve heard that psilocybin, it’s like even a single experience can neuroplastically change your brain forever.

[00:11:44] Matt Zemon: Ketamine can do the same thing. It’s, it’s a, yeah. And then you enter into the state of neuroplasticity following the medicine where you can then implement behavioral change or whatever else is important to you based on the lessons from there.

[00:11:57] Matt Zemon: Many people feel a connectedness to [00:12:00] something else. It could be the higher power. It can be, uh, the interconnectedness of all things, but you don’t feel alone. And for a lot of people, that is a, is a lovely thing. Thing to remember that you’re not alone, that we are part of this existence and that we are part of nature.

[00:12:14] Matt Zemon: We are part of humanity and we’re not alone, especially things like MDMA, you turn off things like shame, blame and guilt. So you’re able then to look back at previous experiences without becoming defensive. And just be like, okay, that was my role in this and that happened and that’s not me. It’s just something that happened to me or by me and now I’m going to move on with that knowledge.

[00:12:39] Matt Zemon: And that can also be freeing. And we’re seeing that, we’re seeing that with the veterans, with the treatment resistant post traumatic stress disorder studies with MDMA, where they’re giving them three sessions of MDMA and therapy on both sides. And 67 percent are emerging without a PTSD diagnosis. 88 percent with a clinically significant improvement in, uh, symptoms.[00:13:00]

[00:13:00] Mark Divine: Pretty amazing. So four really, really interesting and important outcomes. And, you know, this can accrue with, like, a single experiment. But, you know, like with the MDMA, generally speaking, like, some sort of process is involved, right? And so I think this is one of the areas I, you know, let’s keep it general, again, not talking about any specific, you know, medicine, like generally speaking, what I’m seeing today is a little bit of a disregard, not a total disregard, but a, not a complete regard for the entire process or the journey or the experience, a curated experience of like preparation for the actual experience of the psychedelics, maybe a multi mode experience, like, you know, What we were talking about earlier with the mission within, like you do this and then you process and then do that and then you process and then you do this, right?

[00:13:48] Mark Divine: More like with the MDMA, a multi day thing. So it’s a journey where you’re getting progressively deeper in with the medicine and then the post work integration and behavioral [00:14:00] modifications, right? That’s a lot of work and something not to be taken lightly, right? But I see a lot of these things popping up that really shortchange some of that and it concerns me.

[00:14:11] Mark Divine: What are your views on this?

[00:14:13] Matt Zemon: I think this is really interesting, Mark. This happens both in the legal medical psychedelic world and in the underground ceremonial psychedelic world. So the questions that the consumer or the participant needs to ask are really the same. And the questions start with How are you going to prepare me to receive this medicine?

[00:14:33] Matt Zemon: Is there going to be an intention setting process? Is there some type of dialogue in advance? And then moves into how What’s going to happen during the ceremony or the medical treatment? Who’s going to be delivering the medicine? What’s the room going to be like? Is there going to be music? Do I have to bring my own?

[00:14:50] Matt Zemon: Am I wearing a mask? What’s the setting? Who’s going to be with me in the room? And then followed by, what happens after the medicine? Do we have any type of integration process? [00:15:00] Is there any type of community that I can fall into in wherever I live that I can talk to and share these experiences with?

[00:15:07] Matt Zemon: There are medical providers doing legal ketamine that are just giving an IV into your arm, sending you on your way, and there are others that are doing all the things I just talked about. There are spiritual providers that are just offering it as a service. Come, do your service, and off you go. And there’s others that are doing everything I just talked about.

[00:15:23] Matt Zemon: And it’s really up to us as participants. And people seeking our own firm ground to ask the questions and find the provider that’s right for us.

[00:15:34] Mark Divine: So Ramana Maharshi, you know, is a famous yogi. And, um, I think it was Ram Dass and a bunch of Americans, you know, would go, had gone and visit him and they brought him LSD once.

[00:15:43] Mark Divine: And so he took a dose and he took another, literally they gave him like eight doses. He just, you know, just sitting there watching them and suddenly his eyes light up and he looks at him and goes, Oh, I see. Because you want to feel powerful. It was a warning, right, because psychedelics are good for an opening, but [00:16:00] as a practice, he was warning that the ego will co opt it.

[00:16:04] Mark Divine: Ego will co opt the experience and make you feel powerful. You know, that points to a lot of the spiritual bypassing that’s happening in the psychedelic community. I want to get your take on that.

[00:16:18] Mark Divine: a shaman or someone who’s just done spiritual bypass because they had some fantastical experience with psychedelics and now they’re, they’re all agog about it.

[00:16:26] Matt Zemon: So I’m going to answer from my opinion only. I believe when you do this work, you’re remembering how powerful you are, that you are loved, that you are worthy, that you are enough and that it’s not what you do.

[00:16:37] Matt Zemon: It’s that on the inside that you don’t need anything on the external side to give you validation. So because I believe that, the role of the shaman, or taita, or facilitator, is to keep me safe, it is to be able to support me as I do this work myself. But if I have a Powerful experience? I did that. If I don’t have a powerful [00:17:00] experience, I did that.

[00:17:01] Matt Zemon: I don’t want to put a shaman or a taita or a facilitator on a pedestal and make them like they’re not God. They’re spiritual peers. They just have a different knowledge base and a way of, and they know how to serve and deliver this medicine in a way that is, uh, that is powerful. I want to hand back that agency back to the individual participant.

[00:17:20] Mark Divine: Find the power in Source, you know, God, the mighty I Am Spirit, as opposed to the ego. I think that’s one of the most valuable things from medicines like this is they help, just like meditation does, to begin to dissolve or soften that ego, that identification that’s always grasping for, you know, needing to be special.

[00:17:40] Mark Divine: And to begin to relax into the openness of that ground of reality, right, that we all are. And so that’s what dissolves the separation, is because you, you dissolve the ego identity with the separate body mind as a separate self, and, and allow this heart mind opening into the absolute. So psychedelics can [00:18:00] be extremely potent because they give you this direct experience of that, like DMT They call the god molecule because like 15 minutes you’re there and then you’re back with no side effects And you’re like what the bleep just happened.

[00:18:13] Mark Divine: You’re back with an experience that has no subject and object. That’s right and and You just have this experience that’s inexplicable. You can’t really put words to it. This is why they call them pointing out instructions. Just point. This is kind of where you, somewhere the answer lies. But you try to frame it with words and you suddenly lose it.

[00:18:30] Mark Divine: Fascinating. So, let’s stick with the dangers. We talked about the danger of not preparing properly. The danger of the container, right? Like, I had some, uh, friends who, you know, You know, we’re hooked up with somebody to do an experience and was out in the desert. And when they told me about it and they showed me pictures.

[00:18:52] Mark Divine: I was stunned. I was like, OMG. And of course they were too, but once they were in it, they really were like, uh. But like, it was [00:19:00] awful. It was almost demonic looking, in terms of the imagery they had. It was just awful. I was like, really grateful they got through that without any problems. Negative effects, but like really important to have the context in the container be like sacred space prepared this idea of having large groups of people doing it together.

[00:19:21] Mark Divine: I’m not a fan of, you know, I’ve done that with 40 people. And you got someone just wailing in one corner because they’re having their experience, emotional experience, which they weren’t prepared for, and people getting up and all around. You know, I’m much more inclined to suggest that a small group setting, four to six people, would be ideal.

[00:19:39] Mark Divine: But I want to hear your thoughts. Your thoughts on this, right? But protecting the space and the ideal experience once you’re there. So source,

[00:19:48] Matt Zemon: set, and setting are the three most important things for people to keep in mind. Source is where did your medicines come from and are they pure? So if you’re not going in the medical route, do you trust your facilitator?

[00:19:59] Matt Zemon: Um, if you’ve bought them [00:20:00] in the market yourself, have you tested them? Set is your mindset. Do you have a clear intention? Do you know why you’re there? Do you have an idea of how long the medicine is going to last? Are you well prepared for this journey? Do you have a medical intake? Do you know that someone’s looked after you to make sure that you’re not going to have a bad reaction with this medicine, that they’ve looked at your mental history, your physical history, your supplements, your prescriptions, and that you can feel confident that you’re, you’re in a good place.

[00:20:24] Matt Zemon: And then your, your setting is all that physical environment. Who’s there? What’s the energy like? What’s the music like? What are the disturbances like? What’s imagery like? You’re highly suggestible in these non ordinary states of consciousness, so if there is a dogma by the facilitators, do you know what that is, and do you agree with it, and are you okay with that?

[00:20:43] Matt Zemon: All things to ask before getting into a non ordinary state of consciousness. With regards to um, to the size, there’s a large um, ayahuasca center in Costa Rica that does a hundred people at a time. Then they’re very popular. That’s just not the right [00:21:00] one for me. There’s other groups that do 40 people at a time, and again, they’re popular.

[00:21:04] Matt Zemon: That’s not the right one for me, but it might be for somebody else. I think Anywhere between 10 and 20 is a great number, and I actually like that better than the, than Solos, and my logic is, there’s a shared energy in the room, and releases move around from person to person, you get to understand how connected these medicines are, and then afterwards, I think when there’s a decent amount of people, you might share something that happened to you on your journey, and that might help me process something that happened to me on mine, and So I think having somewhere in that 10 to 20 range is a good number, but six is beautiful, eight’s beautiful.

[00:21:42] Matt Zemon: Just for me, when you get into the 40s, 60s, 100, it feels like it’s too much. But that’s, again, personal opinion. In terms of safety, you brought that up. Besides Iboga, which, again, you started that, or Ibogaine, that’s the one that has a real cardiovascular risk, and people really do need to have a medical professional on [00:22:00] site.

[00:22:00] Matt Zemon: It’s a serious, serious medicine. On the other hand, if you have an opioid addiction, it’s one of the few medicines out there that can help relieve that.

[00:22:08] Mark Divine: Yeah, that’s incredible. So I’ll talk more about that. It’s got a pretty high success rate for opioid, you know, people have flat out gotten off a heroin after one experience with ibogaine.

[00:22:17] Matt Zemon: Again, in our country, it’s illegal, but there are gray clinics in Canada and in Mexico and Central America. But I don’t, I don’t know if we know of a better medicine for people who have an opioid dependence than Ibogaine. So is it more risky than others? Absolutely. But if I had a child, a relative, a loved one with an opioid addiction, that’s certainly where I would try.

[00:22:38] Matt Zemon: Again, when we talk about what’s safe is probably not the right word. We can talk about risk reduced. There’s what, a hundred some overdoses on Tylenol every year in America. Yeah. There is no overdose, uh, known overdose for psilocybin or for mushrooms. So, there are dangers to all of these medicines.

[00:22:54] Matt Zemon: There’s particularly dangers to the, um, the chemical compounds, the non named psychedelics that people [00:23:00] buy in head shops, that really are like research chemicals that have gotten out. Those, we don’t really know what they do to humans. Highly, highly dangerous. When we talk about most psychedelics, we talk about mushrooms and LSD and MDMA and MDA or Sassafras.

[00:23:13] Matt Zemon: The risk is pretty low compared to other drugs. There’s a really beautiful study by Dr. David Nutt from Imperial College, London, where he said, let’s forget how drugs are classified and just look at harm to self and harm to others. And the number one harm to self, harm to others is alcohol. It’s a 73.

[00:23:29] Matt Zemon: Heroin is like a 55. Mushrooms are a 6, LSD is a 7, MDMA is a 9. So that’s not risk free, but relative risk. If you, again, control source, set, and setting, the probability of having a bad, truly bad experience is pretty low. You can have a challenging experience. Because lots have come up for you, but that’s not the same as a bad physical or bad, truly bad mental experience.

[00:23:55] Mark Divine: Do you think there’s any issue with tapping into astral [00:24:00] energy or non physical entities? The reason I’m bringing this up is because I have a friend named Ben Greenfield who came out on a podcast last year with a guy named Josh Trent and he was saying, Don’t do psychedelics because essentially, you know, unless the conditions are absolutely perfect and there’s, you know, you’re able to set the energetic field up to protect you, you’re exposing yourself to negative astral energy or negative non physical entities, which are, you know, trying to like connect with certain humans.

[00:24:30] Mark Divine: Is that completely out of left field, that question, or is it something that is thought about or I get

[00:24:35] Matt Zemon: it. I get where you’re coming from. Um, again, this you get really personal opinions here. I believe that we as a culture grow up in a scarcity mindset. And it’s false. We are living in an abundant world, there’s plenty for everybody, and that I’m in charge of my movie.

[00:24:51] Mark Divine: Yeah, I agree with that. You don’t want something in your show, you don’t invite it, right? Correct. Or you reject it. But not everyone has that agency. I think that’s what he was [00:25:00] wanting. Like, unless you have that, that agency and that autonomy and that clarity as a, as a being to just thrust yourself into a psychedelic experience, You know, it could have that risk where you’re going to have some energy come at you or attach to you.

[00:25:13] Matt Zemon: Where that you could bring that energy up yourself. That’s right. And so a couple things here, we, we get into what do people want? I’m not telling anybody to do anything they don’t want to do. If someone says, you know, I’m ready, I want to do this and I’m not taking a prescription or a supplement or have a previous psychological reason that I shouldn’t, I would like to try fill in the blank psychedelic.

[00:25:36] Matt Zemon: Okay. Great. Then we get into, did you find a facilitator that’s experienced and that’s going to help prepare you for this journey, so that you are going in there with your eyes wide open, and you know how to surrender, and you know how to breathe, and you know not to run away from the dragon or the entity, but to ask it, what are you here to teach me, and you know to raise your hand if you need help, and you know the facilitator’s gonna, and get rid of, Any type of energy or help you process that and [00:26:00] move on in the journey.

[00:26:01] Matt Zemon: I think that person should be allowed to do this type of work. And it shouldn’t be up to me to determine whether you have enough of whatever. Oh, I’m sorry, you don’t have enough, quite enough depression, quite enough anxiety, quite enough agency to be allowed to do this work. Who am I to make that determination?

[00:26:19] Matt Zemon: I can help create the container. I can help make sure there’s male and female energy in the room. I can help make sure there’s musicians that know how to guide using music instead of words. I can make sure there’s no one there who’s going to touch you inappropriately when you’re in a, uh, in a non ordinary state.

[00:26:33] Matt Zemon: I can make sure that you have preparation up front and integration on the back end. But your journey is your journey. And I think we, as a society, need to get better at creating these containers where people can do this work.

[00:26:45] Mark Divine: Because the benefits far outweigh some of the modicum of risk, right? Like we talked about, the chemical physiological risk is really small.

[00:26:53] Mark Divine: Risk of overdose is almost zero. impossible. And then these other risks that we’re talking about are really psycho [00:27:00] emotional, which largely reside within the individual, you know, body mind matrix. And that’s exactly why these psychedelics or why this type of processes are really valuable, because it helps release that energy.

[00:27:10] Mark Divine: And, and you could do, you know, 20 years worth of therapy and, and, and, and, In a few weeks with a really well run psychedelic experience that has the setting in that context and what was the source all really well taken care of.

[00:27:22] Matt Zemon: We’re in a world right now where there’s so much moral preaching.

[00:27:26] Mark Divine: For sure.

[00:27:26] Matt Zemon: We’re telling women what they can and can’t do with their bodies in the name of religion. Or it’s giving people rules but not experiences. And then we’re medically sedating adults and children every which way. We’re putting people on antidepressants and mood stabilizers and anti anxiety medication with no plan to ever get them off.

[00:27:47] Mark Divine: Of course, that’s not the business model.

[00:27:48] Matt Zemon: It’s not the business model. So now all of a sudden we have people who feel if these medicines work for you, that’s beautiful. And for 40 ish percent of the society ish, they do work. But if it’s not working [00:28:00] for you, it’s not you failing the medicine. It’s the medicine failing you.

[00:28:03] Matt Zemon: If you don’t feel alive, if you don’t feel With antidepressants, 73 percent sexual dysfunction. Is that right? Yeah, it’s a huge number. We haven’t had a shift in mental health, and this isn’t just mental health, this is spiritual health, but if we’re going to talk about it, we combine, it can be an and, we haven’t had any major breakthroughs since the antidepressant was created over 50 years ago, and people are tired of living not their authentic selves.

[00:28:28] Matt Zemon: And here is a medicine that indigenous, and going back to where we started, let’s go back to just the natural medicines. Indigenous cultures have used them for thousands of years. Indigenous cultures typically don’t do things that are harmful to their population, and repetitively. So we have something that has thousands of years of history, that’s done in a group setting, in a ceremonial context.

[00:28:48] Matt Zemon: And has good results. So again, not promising any results. The probability, the possibility is there, and the possibility is not [00:29:00] there when antidepressants aren’t working for you and you’re just numbing the symptoms. You’ve never gotten to the root of why you don’t feel alive, why you feel depressed, why you feel anxious, why you feel alone.

[00:29:11] Matt Zemon: Why you don’t feel this world is beautiful, why you need to hoard finances, uh, and build a, build financial legacies along emotional holes.

[00:29:20] Mark Divine: Right.

[00:29:25] Mark Divine: Okay, we’re going to take a short break here from the Mark Divine show to hear a short message from one of our partners.

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[00:31:44] Mark Divine: And now back to the show.

[00:31:50] Mark Divine: You know, if you want to take it this out of socioeconomic level, like the incredible separation, anxiety and self preservation going on has played out to this [00:32:00] extraordinary degree of wealth inequality that’s just utterly unsustainable. And then you look at the destruction of the environment. Like when you go down this journey and it opens you up and opens your heart, it opens your heart to all beings and the interconnectedness of all things, including mother earth.

[00:32:14] Mark Divine: And, and so you just, Stop any compulsive need to be destructive, right? So you begin to question all your actions, you know, who you support and how you interact with the world of commerce, right? And, you know, I think that’s like this, for me, this is an important lever in global healing because ultimately, you know, we’re going to solve a world of problems as a global culture through shifts in consciousness, not through W.

[00:32:43] Mark Divine: E. F. and U. N., right? And it’s happening. I mean, we’re seeing it happen. You know, everything’s in balance, as you know, right? This is like basic yoga 101, right? And so the more conflict and violence you see, it means there’s an equal compensating balancing effect of positive [00:33:00] energy, consciousness growth, you know, conversations like this happening.

[00:33:03] Mark Divine: And we got a lot of violence and negativity in the world so that must mean there’s a lot of good happening in the world. So focus on the good. Yeah, I’m finding it interesting. So I have, I have a 20 year old and an 18 year old, and my wife’s a teacher, and I’m finding it interesting how many conversations that we’re swimming in, where the lens is pointed outward, where the lens is point of, Oh, you need to change how you address me, or you need to help me feel safe, or you can’t trigger me.

[00:33:27] Matt Zemon: That’s what they’re taught in school nowadays. It’s awful. It’s a lot of it. And it just, it feels like the lens is pointed in the wrong direction. That is a recipe for unhappiness that I’m dependent on your behavior for me to feel good in my opinion, we need to spend more time teaching people to look within to find their strength to find how am I going to receive?

[00:33:49] Matt Zemon: However, I’m acknowledged toward or treated and find that confidence within and move forward. And I, and I truly believe that this is I mean, what an amazing time of history that we have [00:34:00] so relatively little worries about hunger and shelter that we can start having these conversations. We can realize, okay, the lens is pointed in the wrong direction, and now we can swing it back.

[00:34:11] Matt Zemon: And now we have medicines that can assist. And we also have things that are non medicine for the medicines are a catalyst, but when you’re finished the medicines, we can move to breath work and meditation and exercise and sleep and nutrition. Because it is an amazing time to be alive. I like what you said when you’re finished.

[00:34:27] Mark Divine: I, I think that’s an important point. Like for me, I, I went into it to investigate it for the vets. I had some interesting and, and rewarding experiences. And then I was done. I wasn’t called to do it again. But I’m grateful for the experiences, and I think that’s an important point, like, and I’d like to get your perspective, like, the people I work with in the ayahuasca space said that the, you know, that’s the, the grandmother, right, it’s the female, and ibogaine is like the masculine.

[00:34:52] Mark Divine: They said that you shouldn’t do it unless you’re called, unless you feel like the plant’s calling you, the medicine is calling you. What’s your take on that? I [00:35:00] think anybody listening to this podcast, 40 minutes in, is fielding a call and they’re looking for permission. If you’re still listening. They would have clicked off long ago.

[00:35:09] Matt Zemon: Yeah. Good point. I do think that’s true, though. If it’s not an enthusiastic, yes, I want to do this, then you shouldn’t do it. It can, you can be nervous, but you still, it’s, it’s gotta be your, your driving this, not your partner, not your kids, not your parents. This is your decision. Right. And it might be a one and done.

[00:35:24] Mark Divine: You know, I have a friend who’s a PhD therapist. She said she did it. She got called and then she’d had an okay, but not great experience. And she’s like, I was done. I’m going to stick with meditation. And the Greeks for 2000, more than 2000 years had a program where once in a lifetime, you’d get to go and experience a psychedelic experience.

[00:35:42] Matt Zemon: Is that right? And yeah, it was the Ellucian mystery, the beautiful, beautiful, uh, concept Socrates, Aristotle, Plato, Marcus Aurelius, Augustus Caesar, all these people we’ve heard about did it. And it was a once in a lifetime experience. Was it like an initiation? It was. It was a chance to, uh, become one with God.

[00:35:59] Matt Zemon: [00:36:00] Um, there’s different theories of what exactly the psychedelic was, but it was a whole ritual that happened for over 2, 000 years. A lot of the native cultures and African cultures, you know, the, the initiative process includes psychedelics with obviously different ceremonies and chanting. Long periods of time in the wilderness.

[00:36:17] Mark Divine: I mean, just really cool. I wish we could bring something like that back. I mean, the Navy SEALs for me were, were an initiation, you know, hell week. What a credible initiation to be awake for six nights training around the clock. I mean, talk about hallucinations. I have more hallucinations in Hell Week than I ever have in a psychedelic experience.

[00:36:35] Matt Zemon: You get extreme tolls on all aspects of your body. That’s right. Yeah, your rhythms. And for those who make it through Hell Week, what an incredible experience. Right. Not as ideal for those who don’t make it through. Yeah. Some of them, it’s a good experience as well. So we have only a few minutes left. I wanted to get into like uniqueness around the different medicines.

[00:36:54] Mark Divine: MDMA, you mentioned, it’s much more of like a connector, a heart opener, right? So you’re not really having [00:37:00] any kind of like, hallucinogenic psychedelic experience, but you’re just in a deeply connective state, right? Is that how you describe MDMA? When I think of what’s a, what’s a really nice ceremony sequence, I love a day of sassafras, which is MDA.

[00:37:14] Matt Zemon: Or MDMA, but Sassafras is a little deeper, it lasts a little bit longer, and it’s a little bit more visual. But I think those heart openers, where you feel incredible love for yourself and incredible love for others, it’s just a great way to start a ceremonial weekend or week. Especially when you’re there with fellow travelers, because it opens you up to have that really deep conversation.

[00:37:34] Matt Zemon: You’ve practiced breathing, you’ve practiced surrendering. You’ve gotten used to the musicians, you’re, you’re ready for ceremony. And then to move from a heart opener to something like a, a crown opener, uh, psilocybin, LSD, let’s stick with natural, let’s go with psilocybin, uh, mushrooms for those who aren’t, uh, who don’t know.

[00:37:52] Matt Zemon: Now, you’re feeling the interconnectedness of all things. You’re feeling the earth breathe. You’re feeling that you are one with nature. And you can [00:38:00] go deep, deep, deep inside your, your body to explore whatever it is you need to explore. And because you’ve practiced previously on a previous day, I think you can go deeper.

[00:38:10] Matt Zemon: Some ceremonies that I’ve, I’ve seen, um, combine those two into one day, and that’s a really nice, um, technique, and there’s good research, or some research on the combination of LSD and psilocybin and, or MDMA and psilocybin, that it reduces, um, the anxiety that sometimes occurs with the mushrooms. And you can substitute that day out with, uh, mescaline, maybe through, uh, San Pedro, a chuma.

[00:38:34] Matt Zemon: I think another plant based day is lovely. And then I love kind of the arc of the, the crescendo moves up to bufo, 5 M E O D M T. I’ve never heard of that. I’ve heard of 5 L E O D M T, but this bufo is the native term for it? Cause the bufo ovarious toad is where the venom comes from in its natural state.

[00:38:53] Matt Zemon: And then there’s a synthetic version of 5 M E O D M T as well. And this is, again, our non duality medicine. [00:39:00] It’s the only one where there’s no subject and object and you’re just part of the universe. And again, it’s super short, 10 to 20 minutes, but I think for a lot of people that’s kind of the culmination of this religious or ceremonial experience that, okay, I’ve, I’ve gotten to look backwards, I’ve gotten to look forward, I’ve gotten to look inside, and now I’ve gotten yet another chance to connect with my spiritual side in a way that there’s really nothing like it that, that we know of.

[00:39:24] Matt Zemon: And you can get there, the yogis talk about getting there in non psychedelic, um, experiences and people do some of the dark meditations, get there, but um, this is a pretty, uh, consistent way to get there. So you recommend these kind of multi day staged experiences that curate, you know, and draw you deeper into the process?

[00:39:44] Matt Zemon: Yeah, I think people who go in for, with, you know, A one ceremony experience, it’s a lot of pressure on themselves. Oh, I’ve got to make, get my money’s worth. It’s got to all be here. What if it’s not a great experience? And you have all this nervousness about the what ifs. When you have a few different medicines over a [00:40:00] few different days, or the same medicine repeated.

[00:40:01] Matt Zemon: I mean, I’m not sure how, when, when you did ayahuasca, but oftentimes that’s three ceremonies over five days. You’re going to get another chance because the surrendering for people like, like, like me or people who are used to some trying to hold on to control, the surrender can take a minute and it’s good not to have, uh, I believe it’s helpful, especially for newcomers to not have to, Oh, I’ve got to get it out of that first ceremony.

[00:40:24] Matt Zemon: I like the multi day multi medicine. Have you had any experience with combo? I haven’t personally. I’ve, I’ve, I know a bunch of people who, who love it, but I have not personally experienced that medicine. It’s not classified as a psychedelic. It’s a plant medicine, but it’s not a psychedelic. It comes from a jungle frog as opposed to the desert frog and um, it has over 200 peptides that they’ve identified.

[00:40:49] Mark Divine: And it’s applied, you put a little burn mark in your shoulder or somewhere it could be and then apply a little bit. It’s like a paste. And it instantly enters your nervous system and your blood and it [00:41:00] starts to like cleanse all your organs with these peptides and then you drink a lot of water, right, tons of water.

[00:41:06] Mark Divine: And the whole experience is like 20 minutes and then suddenly, you know, you just get all this heat and all these toxins start accumulating in your stomach and then you, you purge it. So it’s very, very uncomfortable until that last purge. Reminds me of ayahuasca in that regard, but it’s, it’s a whole different experience.

[00:41:21] Mark Divine: And then you just, you just feel like, and a lot of people have these major emotional releases and cleansings. And so there’s the psycho emotional and physiological purification, and it’s a great preparation for a psychedelic experience. A lot of the stuff that would get cleansed in the early part of an experience, especially emotional, you know, baggage that you’re holding on to, you can release it through the combo and then you can go in at a more open level to the psychedelic experience.

[00:41:49] Matt Zemon: Have you experienced Hape or Rape on any of your ceremonies? Yes. That’s a lovely non psychedelic. Hop is a nice, again, it’s just a bunch of herbs that the shamans have put together, [00:42:00] and there’s no psychedelic. It’s medicine, but it’s like saying tobacco is medicine. So some of them have a little tobacco, but most of them are just herbs.

[00:42:07] Mark Divine: All sorts of different herbs from the jungle, broken into a fine powder. It’s like a snuff and it opens up different areas, different chakras. It’s a gateway to just really deep meditation. I think it’s a beautiful medicine and it really grounds you into the space. I love it. Either it can be the beginning of the ceremony or the end.

[00:42:25] Mark Divine: We should kind of like, as we wrap up, like talk about what’s technically legal and not legal. Like hape and um, combo are completely legal. They’re not considered to be any danger, they’re, they’re not a medicine in the sense of like you would consider like MDMA or psilocybin, right? But now ketamine is legal for assisted therapy, right?

[00:42:46] Mark Divine: So I know you’re involved in a company, I was sponsored by Mindbloom for a while so I did their process. It was decent, you know, I still prefer in person but it worked, right, to have that kind of virtual container. That’s well done. Yeah, [00:43:00] Mindbloom, New Life, Better You Care, all doing good work for access. I mean, you’re talking about probably 1, 200 for six sessions versus 4, 000 to 6, 000 for six sessions in clinic.

[00:43:10] Matt Zemon: So it just is another option. Is it as good as in person? Probably not. But is it good for those who that’s the price point they need to achieve? And that’s, yeah. And, and for convenience, it’s lovely. So it’s just, it’s different. Yeah. And some people don’t want to be, to be seen at a clinic or, you know, go, it takes a lot of time.

[00:43:28] Mark Divine: So to do it in the privacy of your own room, as long as you’ve got someone there who can kind of keep an eye on things. So ketamine now legal, its main benefit is really with anxiety and depression. Am I right? It really helps people overcome that really quickly. Yeah, there’s research on, uh, on alcohol use and on eating disorders, but OCD as well.

[00:43:48] Matt Zemon: But yeah, depression, anxiety is primarily, and then there’s also a whole world of pain management with ketamine, cluster headaches and migraines, but, but, um, yeah, off label for those purposes. What do you think about microdosing ketamine? [00:44:00] I don’t love that idea. It’s an addictive quality. It’s psychologically addictive.

[00:44:03] Mark Divine: I don’t think there’s a physiological addictive quality to it. Ketamine has a little bit with animal studies. Again, unlike mushrooms and LSD where there’s really no addiction potential, ketamine has a little bit that I’d be careful of. Um, and then I’m also be careful. I mean, I’m, again, I’m a fan of microdosing.

[00:44:20] Matt Zemon: I think it’s a lovely scaffolding, even if the research is split. There’s some research that says this is just a placebo. And there’s other research that says it works, and it’s kind of half and half, so it’s up to you as the participant or consumer. But it’s really important, if you’re going to microdose, uh, mushrooms, that you take a break every four weeks, because again, the long term mushroom use, there’s potential heart issues.

[00:44:41] Matt Zemon: And both, uh, Stamets and, uh, Dr. Fadiman say take a break every four weeks for two weeks. Highly recommend that if you’re going to microdisc. That’s a good gouge. Thanks for that. The other recommendation we haven’t talked about is just for people who want their own medical intake. So let’s say you’re still listening to this podcast and you’re wondering, well, I’ve got this thing, whatever this thing is, [00:45:00] or I’m curious about me and I want to talk to somebody who has no interest in selling me anything, the spirit pharmacist.

[00:45:06] Matt Zemon: is where Dr. Ben Malcolm is a PharmD. It’s spiritpharmacist. com. That’s the guy I recommend you go to. He does consults. He knows psychedelic pharmacology inside and out, and he’s not trying to sell you a retreat or a ceremony or a product. He’s just doing a consultation, and you can have a very open discussion.

[00:45:23] Matt Zemon: I did this. I had this experience. What do you really think is going to happen if I take XYZ psychedelic and he’ll say, oh, that, yo, this is the risk, this is the, this, you might look at the, that. I can’t recommend it highly enough. That’s a great idea. There’s some movement toward MDMA being legal, right? So they’re, they’re going to be using it.

[00:45:41] Mark Divine: Should be next year or early next year. They’ve done clinical trials and I use it for vets. So next year that could be. Interesting, but that, so, those are the only two, right, that have been So, ketamine today, MDMA hopefully next year, um, and that will be for treatment resistant PTSD. There’s still questions over what might be allowed off [00:46:00] label.

[00:46:00] Matt Zemon: For years, that medicine was used with couples therapy. Again, you turn off shame, blame, and guilt, and you can look at your partner and say, when you do this That makes me feel like that. And the partner, instead of being defensive, can say, I love you, I don’t want to make you feel like that. And hear you.

[00:46:14] Matt Zemon: It’s beautiful, beautiful medicine. And then, um, psilocybin, FDA, the FDA has given it breakthrough therapy designation. Johns Hopkins is doing beautiful work with, um, terminal cancer patients. And the psilocybin doesn’t change the prognosis. They’re still terminal. What it does is it changes those patients experience as they go through that process.

[00:46:35] Matt Zemon: It changes how they feel about themselves, it changes how they feel about their mortality, and it changes how they interact with their family members. So it’s beautiful for that purpose, and we’re hoping that a couple years from now psilocybin will be legalized. And then there’s 309 academic institutions studying psychedelics, so there’s research coming out all the time on, again, anything that has repetitive [00:47:00] thinking behavior.

[00:47:00] Matt Zemon: So from autism, which the University of Toronto is studying, to OCD, eating disorders, alcohol use, smoking, depression, anxiety, just it goes on and on. There’s research after research coming out. It doesn’t solve anything and I don’t believe it’s a cure for anything. It’s a catalyst, but I think it works for all of these different, quote, diagnoses, because at the core, it’s not numbing a symptom.

[00:47:23] Matt Zemon: It’s not solving a symptom. It’s allowing the participant. to kind of heal themselves using this medicine. Well, anything that can get someone off of the, an addictive pharmacological antidepressant or, or whatever, anti anxiety or ADHD, those types of things, I think is a good thing. Like, it’s really not good for the business model, the big pharma, but it’s good for the humans.

[00:47:46] Mark Divine: That’s been the challenge. The MAPS has spent like 140 million to get MDMA re legalized, And that’s kind of a non profit, donation based, primarily model. There’s just not a lot of money in the drugs and [00:48:00] people might do it once in their life. Or maybe once a year. It’s not an everyday. So there’s not a lot of incentive to go through the FDA process and get a new version of you name it.

[00:48:11] Matt Zemon: And when you can go out the outside and find psilocybin mushrooms growing in the forest.

[00:48:19] Matt Zemon: What’s next for you, Matt? Like, what do you focus on now? I’m really focused at this intersection of medical and spiritual. In the old days, there was just a healer. The healer is both medical and spiritual. And we’ve gone to where we have medical being pure science, and spiritual being the realm of the clergy, and psychedelic stances on both sides.

[00:48:39] Matt Zemon: So I try to talk with spiritual world about how can we reduce risk by adopting some of the practices that are used in medical to learn from the latest knowledge of the brain and the body. And conversely, I’m talking with medical professionals almost every day about how can you adopt ceremonial practices or partner with ceremonial leaders to do this together [00:49:00] and, again, become more effective in what you’re doing.

[00:49:04] Matt Zemon: Just a simple example, we were talking about group size. A lot of the medical practices, it’s one on one or one on two, it’s two people in a room on one person. That is so expensive. 20 people in the room with a facilitator and a medical and museum and staff is much more affordable. And so everybody can make more money and be more effective.

[00:49:26] Matt Zemon: So I’m, I’m spending a lot of time in both of those camps talking to, uh, advocating for safe ceremonial use of psychedelics. Amazing. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences and your wisdom in this area. It’s fascinating for me. It is. And I know that listeners are more and more attuned. And so I think that we will have a lot of people who’ve stuck it out to listen to this whole thing.

[00:49:50] Mark Divine: I hope so. Five years ago, not so much. I probably would have been like canceled. But this is great work. I love that. I love that the listeners hopefully are saying, maybe this is right for me to take a [00:50:00] psychedelic, or maybe it’s not. Maybe it’s right for someone I love, or maybe it just changes how I vote.

[00:50:04] Matt Zemon: And we’re seeing amazing things. I wish I could get my mom and dad to do it, right? You know, I tell you what, multi generational ceremonies, we had a couple of ceremonies ago in 80, 79, and like 52. And it’s just beautiful. Oh, I love saying that. And then I’ve also seen 18 and 50. Same. I’ve seen all three gen, I’ve, we have a friend that did all three generations and it was powerful.

[00:50:26] Mark Divine: Healing, cause you can heal families generationally with, you know, one powerful experience like that. I think the, uh, how to change your mind documentary on Netflix and fantastic fungi also on Netflix are good conversation starters. And uh, again, we’re seeing a lot of, uh, 50, 60, 70 year old people saying, I’m ready to do this.

[00:50:45] Matt Zemon: Now, Matt, where can folks learn more about your work and connect with you? Yeah. Matt Zeman. com is kind of my core site. My books, uh, psychedelics for everyone and beyond the trip are both available really anywhere books are sold. I have an audible version of the psychedelics for [00:51:00] everyone. I’m really active on LinkedIn and respond on Instagram and I love, uh, people booking discovery calls to talk about kind of how psychedelics might be, uh, might work for them.

[00:51:10] Matt Zemon: So I’m open and respond. Awesome. Well, thank you for that. And, uh, thank you for your time today. It’s been really interesting. Mark, thank you. Appreciate this discussion. Yeah. Hooyah.

[00:51:22] Mark Divine: That was definitely a broad based and fascinating discussion with Matt Zeman about psychedelics, the good and the dangers and the different, you know, things that are happening in the field of psychedelics. Um, it’s very, very interesting and I hope you found that useful. So thanks so much, Matt. Show notes are on our website at markdivine.

[00:51:43] Mark Divine: com. And you can find me on social media, on Twitter slash x at Mark Divine and on Instagram, Facebook at Real Mark Divine. And if you’re not on my newsletter distribution list, please consider subscribing. It comes out every Tuesday. It’s called Divine Inspiration. I’ve got my blog and which is top of my [00:52:00] mind that week, as well as show notes from the podcast, as well as a book I’m reading and a practice and other really interesting things that come across Men Index.

[00:52:07] Mark Divine: So go to mark divine.com to subscribe and share it with your friends. Appreciate your reviews and ratings. It really helps. There’s so many shows out there now that the only way to stay relevant or to be noticed is referrals and people like to see lots of reviews and ratings. So please consider doing it wherever you listen to or watch this show.

[00:52:28] Mark Divine: And thanks so much for being the change you want to see in the world with technologies like this podcast. And my newsletter, and books, and sharing with other thought leaders, we can do so at scale. To push back against the negativity and, um, the violence in the world, we have to do it by changing our consciousness.

[00:52:46] Mark Divine: And that starts with you doing your work. And so I appreciate your support and I appreciate you doing that. Until next time, I’ll continue to do my work. Huya. Bye [00:53:00] now.