Mark Divine [00:00:26]:
What do you call it?

Catherine Divine [00:00:27]:
5.2.

Mark Divine [00:00:28]:
Yeah. Level 5.2 earthquake in California. It’s kind of like a category three hurricane in Miami. Like, we didn’t even set our beer down.

Catherine Divine [00:00:36]:
Yeah. No, I. It. It shook the house.

Mark Divine [00:00:40]:
Did it?

Catherine Divine [00:00:40]:
Huh? Because I was in my class and all of a sudden the house started shaking.

Mark Divine [00:00:45]:
I was working out. That’s probably why.

Catherine Divine [00:00:47]:
And I was like, is this an earthquake right now? You know? Yeah.

Mark Divine [00:00:49]:
I was probably bouncing around.

Speaker B [00:00:51]:
We live right next to the train. So I was on a call and, like, I thought it was the train, and there’s no train. And then I was. I thought Becca was, like, jumping up and down or something. No, this is a quake.

Catherine Divine [00:01:02]:
Yeah. No, it was a little. Little earthquake. Little big earthquake. Five’s pretty. Isn’t that a pretty good size or.

Mark Divine [00:01:10]:
No, it really gets dangerous around seven. That’s when buildings start falling down.

Catherine Divine [00:01:18]:
I wonder if we’ll have any more. Like, if there will be a bigger one. We’re about due for an earthquake in California, so.

Mark Divine [00:01:27]:
They always say that.

Speaker B [00:01:28]:
Yesterday.

Mark Divine [00:01:31]:
That’s funny. We’re due for an earthquake. I’ll have one one day.

Speaker B [00:01:35]:
We need that sign. That’s like days since last earthquake.

Mark Divine [00:01:39]:
One is really.

Catherine Divine [00:01:44]:
Due for a bigger.

Mark Divine [00:01:45]:
Due for a bigger one, huh? Usually the small ones bleed off the energy so you don’t have to have a big one.

Catherine Divine [00:01:53]:
I didn’t know that. Remember I told you I saw that random thing on social media that was like, I’m from. I’m a time traveler, and on this date there’s going to be a large earthquake in California. But it didn’t happen. So they were a liar. Lying time traveler.

Mark Divine [00:02:13]:
Was it yesterday? The date?

Catherine Divine [00:02:15]:
No, it wasn’t. It was the end of March. I mean, they weren’t far off.

Mark Divine [00:02:19]:
No.

Catherine Divine [00:02:20]:
So maybe by them reporting changed locations and times because they messed with the time space. Not supposed to tell people. Okay.

Mark Divine [00:02:32]:
Rolling.

Speaker B [00:02:33]:
All right.

Catherine Divine [00:02:36]:
Clappity clap, clap.

Speaker B [00:02:38]:
All right, we’re rolling.

Catherine Divine [00:02:40]:
Sweet.

Mark Divine [00:02:41]:
Rolling.

Speaker B [00:02:41]:
Rolling.

Mark Divine [00:02:43]:
Ready for this?

Catherine Divine [00:02:44]:
Yeah, sure.

Mark Divine [00:02:45]:
See what happens.

Catherine Divine [00:02:46]:
Let’s see what happens. Yeah, I’m gonna let you lead on this.

Mark Divine [00:02:48]:
I’ll do the intro. Where’s my energy.

Catherine Divine [00:02:54]:
Where is it? It’s in your lower Dantian, mother.

Mark Divine [00:02:58]:
Thank you.

Catherine Divine [00:02:59]:
You’re welcome.

Mark Divine [00:02:59]:
I’m gonna summon. Welcome to the Mark Divine Show. This is your host, Mark Divine. Thanks for joining us today. Super stoked that we get to share interesting conversations with some of my favorite scholars and authors and leaders and all sorts of interesting people who are doing uncommon things in the world. So this show is about igniting passion and transformation in you. So the fact that you’re here is good news. So thanks for being here and let’s get busy.

Mark Divine [00:03:32]:
Today I’m talking with the wonderful Catherine Divine. Right. Who’s pursuing her PhD in East west psychology.

Catherine Divine [00:03:41]:
Yes.

Mark Divine [00:03:41]:
So she’s an expert in all sorts of things. She’s an advanced yoga master, a healer and an expert on emotional development. And so today we’re going to talk about emotional development, the importance of emotional development and emotional intellect or EQ for leadership. I think it’s absolutely crucial. You know, think about this Catholic. We are now pretty much everyone’s finally figured out that the age of AI is here. It’s been around for a while, but it’s been behind the scenes. Yeah, we’ve had now ChatGPT and other large language models for a couple of years and I don’t know about you, but I’m just starting to like discover how valuable these are.

Mark Divine [00:04:21]:
It’s like having a assistant with 140 IQ at your fingertips.

Catherine Divine [00:04:26]:
It’s very interesting. Yes. I am wrapping my mind around it as fast as I possibly can have to learning about how to use it because yeah, I can see, I can see now that it’s. Well first what I realized is I’ve been using AI without thinking like, oh, Google, you know, I just called it Google Social media.

Mark Divine [00:04:47]:
You know, it’s, it’s machine learning has been around for a long time.

Catherine Divine [00:04:49]:
Yeah.

Mark Divine [00:04:50]:
But as an individual user you haven’t been able to use it with agency.

Catherine Divine [00:04:54]:
No.

Mark Divine [00:04:55]:
Like, oh, I’m going to use AI. It’s actually kind of using you in the past and it still is, it’s.

Catherine Divine [00:05:00]:
Definitely still using me. And that’s something I’m, you know, also being cautious of.

Mark Divine [00:05:05]:
Yeah, that’s important. Well, it’s important for us to learn to use it. But the point I’m about to make is, and the reason we want to talk about emotional development, I think it’s the crucial skill for leaders and yet it hasn’t really been developed much. I mean there’s been discussion about emotional development development. I mean the work of Daniel Goldman with EQ and even multiple intelligence. Gardner and others who, you know in the leadership field talk about multiple intelligence. So there’s been theory about it, but as you know, we’re big on practice, right? To go from theory to practice is crucial because you never get to mastery without doing that. And yet when it comes to leadership development, there’s been very little in the field of emotional development for leaders.

Mark Divine [00:05:49]:
Now guess what? All the rage through the industrial age and right up until the recent past IQ was pretty much given prevalence by leaders. And all personal and leadership development programs really emphasize strategic decision making, your ability to solve problems, think things through, better decision models, all that kind of stuff. And now with, with AI, like you’re.

Catherine Divine [00:06:19]:
Obsolete now I see where you’re going.

Mark Divine [00:06:22]:
So, so developing your IQ would be, would be folly. Right. You already, you know, you got what you got, so let’s move on. So then where do you move on to? Well, emotional development. And what I want to talk about with you, Catherine, is how what we can’t make this mistake with emotional development. Let me rephrase this. We can’t make the same mistake with developing emotionally leader, emotionally mature leaders as we did with personal development. Because in the personal development or even the original leadership development model, it was all about the individual and the individual.

Mark Divine [00:06:58]:
So it reinforced the idea that the individual was sacrosanct and really did nothing to help leaders develop relational power. Whereas emotional development, even the original training that you see with like EQ where it says, okay, emotional development consists of these four qualities, right. Emotional awareness, self awareness, self control, and then me having awareness of the social situations and me having the ability to control my emotions in social situations. Nowhere in there is there anything about us.

Catherine Divine [00:07:35]:
Right, right.

Mark Divine [00:07:36]:
It’s all about me wanting to be self aware and in self control, which is all good stuff. But even in the relationship with others, to be self aware, self control in the sense that you know what’s going on with the others and that’s incomplete. This reinforced by the, you know, the paternalistic, staunch, individualistic culture that we live in. It’s not going to work for the future.

Catherine Divine [00:08:00]:
Yeah. I think that what you just touched on was people have missed in, you know, modern society, culture, the sacred third.

Mark Divine [00:08:10]:
That’s right.

Catherine Divine [00:08:11]:
So what gets created between two people? There is an us.

Mark Divine [00:08:14]:
That’s right. And it’s a unique.

Catherine Divine [00:08:16]:
And it’s a unique entity. So what’s between, let’s say you and me is unique, you know, difference between what’s between you and my mom. Right, right. So it’s like it’s the.

Mark Divine [00:08:28]:
And then if you add more people.

Catherine Divine [00:08:30]:
And if you add more people, then.

Mark Divine [00:08:31]:
That team energy is, is an entity.

Catherine Divine [00:08:34]:
And the other thing that you said was. That caught my attention because I’ve been, you know, studying Young is Carl Young. Yeah. Carl Jung, which is, you know, modern psychology is this idea of individuation, which is self knowing and self integration versus individualism, which is more that patriarchal colonial structure which people are really starting to notice. Like, oh, wait a second, we need to be more communal. We need to be more, you know, thinking of the collective.

Mark Divine [00:09:04]:
Right. And I like the word interdependence as well. So strong, emotionally mature individuals don’t lose their independence, but they don’t sacrifice someone else’s independence for their independence. Right. So that’s called interdependence, where everyone maintains their agency and their autonomy, but can cooperate in a spirit of harmony. Right. To create that third Us.

Catherine Divine [00:09:31]:
Yes, us.

Mark Divine [00:09:32]:
Space.

Catherine Divine [00:09:33]:
Yeah. You’re not codependent, so. Yeah. You’re not self sacrificing or codependence would be self sacrificing.

Mark Divine [00:09:40]:
Sacrificing connection for sense.

Catherine Divine [00:09:42]:
Say performance independence would be ignoring how your actions impact another in order to get ahead, let’s say, or to get what you want. And it’s maintaining separation and it’s maintained separation. And interdependence recognizes that. That there is a thread that connects everything.

Mark Divine [00:10:00]:
Right.

Catherine Divine [00:10:01]:
And there’s, there’s that, you know, like we’re all, as Buddha said, we’re all do. Drops on the. The web of life. Right, the spider web of life.

Mark Divine [00:10:10]:
I like that.

Catherine Divine [00:10:11]:
I like that image too. Dew drops on the spider web of life.

Mark Divine [00:10:17]:
This is difficult work. Not just for men. I was going to say it’s difficult work. Difficult work for everybody. Women tend to be a little bit more open to relationship, relational work because of their orientation toward being caregivers. And men are resistant to it because of their traditional role as breadwinners. You know, the hunters, the gatherers and warriors needing to kind of like shield wall themselves from pain.

Catherine Divine [00:10:46]:
Well, it’s actually with women, it’s a survival instinct.

Mark Divine [00:10:48]:
Right.

Catherine Divine [00:10:48]:
It’s because, you know, there’s been a lot of conversations going on lately about the miss of, you know, people around, you know, like, oh, we’re the same. But it’s like the level of hyper vigilance women have to have when they walk out the door is just different. You know, there’s the. For most of our existence, we still were the prey. And maybe that’s shifting a little bit, but but that need to be relational is actually a survival instinct because we want to be safe, you know, in our most like, core aspect.

Mark Divine [00:11:26]:
Unfortunately though, it’s interesting that if you think about like the women’s rights, women’s liberation movements or feminism actually reinforce separation because they’re asking you to go like step, step into your warrior, you know.

Catherine Divine [00:11:40]:
Well, yeah, dance with the wolves, right? Our life has spanned.

Mark Divine [00:11:44]:
Be an individual.

Catherine Divine [00:11:44]:
Our life span is shortened. Well, it’s what we took as. I think what happened was women wanted equity and instead they went for equality in that first, you know, phase of feminism.

Mark Divine [00:11:59]:
And in order to get that they had to act.

Catherine Divine [00:12:02]:
They mimicked men be in or and you know, and swallow back to emotional intelligence. I’m like, my goodness, you know, swallowed, still being criticized, degraded. Right. In the workplace in order to be air quote equal.

Mark Divine [00:12:20]:
Right.

Catherine Divine [00:12:21]:
And I mean that’s still going on today for sure. And I think it again is getting better, but we still have a long way to go. So with emotional intelligence that what’s happened is I think one of the reason women’s lifespans have shortened and you know, this isn’t about the male, female conversation, but is that they’ve had to suppress their emotions in, in especially like corporate America or corporate world, you know, global.

Mark Divine [00:12:48]:
And anytime you suppress an emotion it’s going to get stuck and it’s going to lead to some sort of.

Catherine Divine [00:12:53]:
And that’s back to the emotional intelligence that’s not intelligent because then you get. Things show up like autoimmune disorders, you know, or yeah, heart, you know, heart issues.

Mark Divine [00:13:04]:
Emotion. Let’s just talk about what is emotion. Anyway, so it, emotion is like a energy. It’s the energy state in the body. And like an intellectual or thought is just an energy in your so called mind. But they’re just, they’re both energy. One is cognition of a thought stream, you know, usually verbalized either silently or not or you know, vocally. And the other is the energy of a feeling state.

Mark Divine [00:13:31]:
And so you can, you can then distinguish between. And we’ve had this conversation a little bit before when we talked about the emotional mountain or the five months. But you can distinguish between a sensation, right, which can be like an intuitive sensation or just a bodily feeling or like this feeling of euphoria coming over you when you see a sun. So those are sensations versus an emotion that is caused by a suppressed or trapped energy, which is what generally is being worked on through like therapeutic processes, Jungian or Freudian psychology. And that’s the whole foundation of our therapeutic processes.

Catherine Divine [00:14:14]:
Yeah, I think. What? Well, what with thought, I think thought doesn’t have that somatic, which is the bodily sensation. Thought is the story lines that run, and they are the voices, whether they’re your own or they’re the others that got trapped in your own, you know, as. As your own voice, kind of like. So, like, say I have my. One of my teachers that is still, like from fifth grade. And so every time I try to do something, for whatever reason, I think it’s my voice. But I hear that, you know, that.

Mark Divine [00:14:49]:
You’Ve got voices of your parents and significant people.

Catherine Divine [00:14:52]:
And then the emotions. Yeah, there’s sensations that you can feel anywhere in the body when you’re acknowledging them in the present moment, it’ll actually pass pretty quickly. If it gets stuck, then sometimes, like, at least for me, and I know know, you know, like, because I talk about my aches and pains, it’ll get stuck in my body often as a pain.

Mark Divine [00:15:17]:
Right.

Catherine Divine [00:15:18]:
And then when I am in meditation, I go, oh, this part of my body hurts. And then I can listen to it. Then I might be able to access the stuck emotion.

Mark Divine [00:15:27]:
Right. Yeah. So I love that you talk about somatic and the. And the mind, you know, the body, mind connection. So the body is the experiencer of emotion. The mind is the thinker of thoughts. Um, often they go hand in hand. In fact, they’re probably.

Mark Divine [00:15:44]:
I can make a bold claim that there’s. For a fully mature, emotionally mature adult. Right. Thoughts will always have some sort of feeling state. Right. Because a thought is actually energy and.

Catherine Divine [00:15:57]:
It’S tied to an emotion, and it’s.

Mark Divine [00:15:58]:
Usually tied to emotion. So the most powerful individuals are those who have a lot of emotional clarity and awareness and not a lot of, like, trauma triggers and are able to bring their full emotional power into their work or into their creative expression.

Catherine Divine [00:16:16]:
I would say that they still might have trauma triggers, but they’ve learned to identify the trigger when it happens, and they have strategies that are in place in order not to be reactive.

Mark Divine [00:16:26]:
That’s right.

Catherine Divine [00:16:27]:
And. And then I would also say I think that our bodies are our minds too. And I know you do too. So I just want to, like. Because we’re kind of saying, I’m trying to draw that.

Mark Divine [00:16:35]:
I’m trying to go there. Right. That’s where meetings like, you have a thought, and that thought will often bring up or activate an emotional pattern.

Catherine Divine [00:16:47]:
Yes.

Mark Divine [00:16:48]:
Now, sometimes it’s functional, sometimes it’s dysfunctional. Sometimes you’re aware of it, Sometimes it’s completely unconscious. Right. It really depends. And that’s the power of the work, especially with a third party. You know, either therapist or somatic worker is to help you see whether the story you’re telling is accurate or whether the emotional trigger that’s creating some story is accurate and most of the time it’s not.

Catherine Divine [00:17:12]:
Right.

Mark Divine [00:17:14]:
Or like on the flip side, you can have a feeling state, AKA emotion that suddenly triggers the thought pattern. Right. It’s like again, cart before the horse. Sometimes the thought will trigger the emotion, sometimes emotion triggers a thought, sometimes they co arise back to energy.

Catherine Divine [00:17:30]:
Right. And you can be like, say, you know, if in the energetic systems of like, if everything is energy and frequency, you, I could be sitting next to somebody that’s having a certain emotion, pick it up and then possibly pick it up and start. And then that could start me in a thought process because now all of a sudden I’m feeling, let’s say resentment or anger and. Or I’m feeling sadness because the other person is. And then it’s like, oh, what’s that? And then, you know, and.

Mark Divine [00:18:02]:
Right. So this brings us back to kind of like developing emotional intelligence.

Catherine Divine [00:18:06]:
Yeah. So how do we do that?

Mark Divine [00:18:08]:
Well, it’s not easy, that’s for sure.

Catherine Divine [00:18:11]:
Sure isn’t. I mean, I’ve been at it for.

Mark Divine [00:18:13]:
Right.

Catherine Divine [00:18:14]:
A long time.

Mark Divine [00:18:15]:
I mean, again, theory to practice is one thing. To listen to Brene Brown and learn about.

Catherine Divine [00:18:20]:
Yeah. Her work is really, you know, guilt.

Mark Divine [00:18:21]:
And shame and vulnerability is to be open to the fact that these exist in all humans, part of the human experience, lay down your sword kind of thing and open up, to be vulnerable, to be transparent about our. That we’re not perfect. Right. When it comes to especially emotional lives. So that’s really first step is that, you know, a awareness is to bring to light things that you may have been ignoring. So yes, ignorance is to ignore things. Ignoring your emotional life. I’m talking to you guys.

Mark Divine [00:18:53]:
Ignoring your emotional life because you think you’re too tough and it’s going to make you look weak. Well, that’s ignorance.

Catherine Divine [00:18:59]:
Yeah.

Mark Divine [00:18:59]:
Right. And it’s going to, it’s going to really limit your ability to lead because relationships is where things get done well.

Catherine Divine [00:19:06]:
And also if you’re ignoring other people’s emotions.

Mark Divine [00:19:09]:
Right.

Catherine Divine [00:19:10]:
So say if you’re ignoring your own, you’re ignoring others. Yes. If, if, if, you know, I’m in a leadership role and, and we’re working together and I’m ignoring my own emotions, how in tune am I with your emotions? And will I be able to see the full picture of what’s happening in a dialogue and. And could. It could be a huge miss.

Mark Divine [00:19:35]:
Right.

Catherine Divine [00:19:35]:
You know, in order for us not only to trust one another more, to be more effective in our work, but also to have the capacity to deepen relationship and secure longevity in our. Right in those roles, you know, so.

Mark Divine [00:19:53]:
You asked where do we go? How do we start? This is it.

Catherine Divine [00:19:57]:
Yeah.

Mark Divine [00:19:57]:
Self. Self awareness is the same as other awareness.

Catherine Divine [00:20:02]:
Yes.

Mark Divine [00:20:02]:
Because the patterns that are in you are in others. Not. Not exactly the same, but you have the capacity for the same expression or suppression. Right. One of my favorite authors is Terence Real in this space, and he wrote a book called Us and Bruce Springsteen wrote the Forward because Bruce is one of his clients, which is kind of cool actually. Anyways, he’s got this thing called the relational grid, which is really helpful for me. Right. If you imagine that the vertical axis, okay, vertical axis would be whether you’re operating out of shame, which is a one down position, like I feel less than, or the opposite of that is operating out of arrogance, or a one up position, okay.

Catherine Divine [00:20:47]:
It’s like better than aggrandizement, right?

Mark Divine [00:20:49]:
Better than less than one up, one down. And obviously you want to be right in the center where you’re neither one up or one down. But you can see sometimes you’re operating out of either or and it depends upon the situation. And these are patterns learned as a child that you’re still carrying into your adult life. And then the horizontal axis, it’s really about your ability to connect. So on one and the far left, you were walled off, like completely walled off. Like that was me in my teens and twenties. And the other end, like you’re completely boundaryless.

Mark Divine [00:21:22]:
You’re spilling out all over the place, like my father, full of rage, you know. So there’s four positions you can be in. You can be one up, narcissistic and walled off. Or you can be one down, operating out of shame and walled off. Or you can be operating out of shame, completely boundaryless, like all over the place. Or you can be operating out of grandiosity and boundaryless all over the place. And you can actually move between these fairly frequently. And so.

Mark Divine [00:21:54]:
So back to self awareness. Self awareness is other awareness. Because as you become aware of your situation, let’s say I’m operating out of shame, which was common for me, and walled off, I could say, oh, wow, I can start to see that in others, right? Because now I know what it feels like, I know what it seems like, right. And I can see if I swing into grandiosity Right. And boundary loss. Right. Or something like that. And so we can kind of map our relations and help each other delicately.

Mark Divine [00:22:28]:
Especially I’m talking about significant couple relationships. The best place to work on your emotional development, in my opinion, is with your significant other.

Catherine Divine [00:22:36]:
Yep.

Mark Divine [00:22:36]:
If you have one.

Catherine Divine [00:22:37]:
Yes.

Mark Divine [00:22:38]:
Because that person, basically you hire them to bring out the worst in you, which is going to help you be your best.

Catherine Divine [00:22:46]:
Yeah, I think. Well, I have a couple of things. Like, one part is, and we talked about this in the emotional mountain is that’s part of the kind of, you know, discovery of the patterns that we learned in those early development years as strategies.

Mark Divine [00:23:00]:
Right.

Catherine Divine [00:23:01]:
And so then Richard Schwartz calls them start to know parts. Yeah.

Mark Divine [00:23:04]:
These parts get split off.

Catherine Divine [00:23:06]:
These parts are. And then seeing how they play out, making sure that as adults, like, you’re saying if I’m in a certain emotional state, that I’m also checking in, like, I might see it in someone else, but also, like, am I projecting on that to someone else? Because it makes me uncomfortable.

Mark Divine [00:23:23]:
Right.

Catherine Divine [00:23:24]:
And so I don’t want to feel that. So I’m going to say that person’s this way. I remember one time saying that to mom, like, because, as you know, because she’s your wife, like that she doesn’t get very loud or angry very easily. She’s pretty calm, centered.

Mark Divine [00:23:42]:
I’m very similar.

Catherine Divine [00:23:43]:
Yeah. And you’re very similar. And we could talk, we could unpack that all day long, but we won’t. But. But the. Her and my sister both like, my sister, she had. She acted out when she was younger, but then at some point she got very calm, very centered like my mom, and never acted out again. And then I started acting out, and then I was always the angry one in the situation.

Catherine Divine [00:24:10]:
And I remember it was like, probably 15 years ago. So I was like, in my mid-30s or whatever, and I was like, you know what, you guys, I’m not the only angry one in this situation. Because they’d be like, well, you’re angry. And I’m like, I think you guys might have some anger, too. You know, so that’s the, like, putting on an emotion. And if sometimes what will happen in, like, those really close family dynamics or romantic relationships is the one person will act out the other person’s emotions, that’s like a whole. Another, I guess, piece. I’m kind of going down a rabbit hole.

Catherine Divine [00:24:36]:
But in when you said, like, with close romantic relationships, and then I would even put this to, like, business partners because they’re in a very close relationship that to know each other’s landscape is so important and to recognize that, you know, not all conversations are going to be comfortable and some things are going to be challenging and difficult and some things are going to be beautiful and fun. And it’s often the approach to it as well. It’s like, okay, how can I, how can I say, let’s say instead of telling myself the story, like if I’m upset, frustrated with someone, that means this is bad.

Mark Divine [00:25:17]:
Right.

Catherine Divine [00:25:17]:
Versus if I’m upset and frustrated with somebody. This is an opportunity for us to explore the boundaries within the relationship, the maybe the rules. And you know, we, we taught that a lot in the rules, roles and identities. But like the rules or roles that we’ve set up here and is there a revisiting of some of those rules or roles or is there a request I have from the person that’s frustrating me? You know, if, if it’s, let’s say they’re them, but it’s not really them. It’s a situation right back to like seeing the other as self. Like we’re all human, we’re all doing the best we can. And so people can take, be in action and unless they’re a sociopath or a psychopath, you know, they’re not consciously trying to harm somebody. Right, right.

Catherine Divine [00:26:10]:
I mean that’s one thing that really bugs me about the whole buzzword narcissism. I feel like so many people are using that word and talking about like people that have narcissistic personality disorder are walking around intentionally trying to hurt people. It’s like they have an extremely complex defense mechanism that has, was built.

Mark Divine [00:26:32]:
Right. And it worked and it worked for.

Catherine Divine [00:26:35]:
Them when they were in highly abusive situations.

Mark Divine [00:26:38]:
I’m thinking of one individual right now.

Catherine Divine [00:26:40]:
Yeah.

Mark Divine [00:26:40]:
So who’s been through all the training, right?

Catherine Divine [00:26:42]:
Yes.

Mark Divine [00:26:42]:
Everything.

Catherine Divine [00:26:43]:
Yeah.

Mark Divine [00:26:43]:
You can imagine.

Catherine Divine [00:26:44]:
And I’m not a therapist, so think.

Mark Divine [00:26:47]:
About this like you can go through all the training in the world still and have all the self control.

Catherine Divine [00:26:54]:
Right.

Mark Divine [00:26:55]:
You could be a sixth, tenth degree black belt and have a PhD. Right. Exactly. And still be a walled off narcissist. That’s one up. Walled off, super controlled, super good at manipulating, smiling screw. But boy, at an unconscious level, you’re just like a wrecking ball and completely unaware of it.

Catherine Divine [00:27:16]:
Unaware that the manipulation is harmful to others.

Mark Divine [00:27:19]:
That is rewarded in our culture.

Catherine Divine [00:27:21]:
That’s right.

Mark Divine [00:27:22]:
That’s what I’m saying. It’s rewarded because our culture is narcissistic and individualistic and walled off.

Catherine Divine [00:27:28]:
Yes.

Mark Divine [00:27:28]:
So it’s not uncommon for top Leaders and people listening to this show right now to be in a one up, walled off position.

Catherine Divine [00:27:36]:
Yeah. Or have those traits. Right, or have those traits.

Mark Divine [00:27:38]:
Right. And so just becoming aware that that exists within you is a step, but then you got to basically do some work.

Catherine Divine [00:27:46]:
Well, and what you just said, it’s like, okay, if you just said that and someone goes, well, no, I’m not like that. It’s then.

Mark Divine [00:27:52]:
And if you get defensive, it’s probably a sign that you.

Catherine Divine [00:27:55]:
And back to like, that’s now an opportunity to explore shame around and. And radical self compassion, like radical understanding. Like I, you know, I work on that so much radical self compassion. Because I’ve definitely am like a hard driver inside my head and I don’t think anyone would know that if like they came across me like casually. But like, anyone that knows me well knows, like I’m just like, yeah, it is life, you know, I’m pretty brutal.

Mark Divine [00:28:21]:
This is what it means to be human.

Catherine Divine [00:28:23]:
Yeah.

Mark Divine [00:28:23]:
So give yourself a break.

Catherine Divine [00:28:25]:
And so I have to be like, whoa, take a break. Exactly like Catherine. Like, you know what, here’s the thing.

Mark Divine [00:28:30]:
If you grew up with any shame, and there’s a lot of people who grew up with shame. Shame based systems, because it’s part of our culture.

Catherine Divine [00:28:38]:
Right.

Mark Divine [00:28:38]:
Your religion shames us. Right. Original sin.

Catherine Divine [00:28:41]:
Yeah.

Mark Divine [00:28:42]:
The academic institutions shame us. Right. Like quiet, you know, your parents or grandparents. Shame. You kids should be spoken to, not heard or something like that. Whatever. The saying was seen but not heard.

Catherine Divine [00:28:55]:
Not heard. Yeah.

Mark Divine [00:28:56]:
At any rate. So there’s shame. Right. Period. And then it can get worse with different traumas. So it exists and shame feels bad, but it’s the same energy as grandiosity.

Catherine Divine [00:29:08]:
Right.

Mark Divine [00:29:08]:
The difference is grandiosity feels good and it gets rewarded.

Catherine Divine [00:29:11]:
Right.

Mark Divine [00:29:12]:
But at the root of grandiosity is shame.

Catherine Divine [00:29:14]:
Yes.

Mark Divine [00:29:15]:
And guess what? Everyone has it. At some level, everyone has it. So radical self acceptance, which is a core practice along with forgiveness. Right. Self acceptance, forgiveness are like two hands, two sides of a glove. Right. They work together well.

Catherine Divine [00:29:28]:
And what I was going to say to that is I’ve got. Is why I was sharing that was that that’s not my voice.

Mark Divine [00:29:34]:
Right.

Catherine Divine [00:29:34]:
The, the one that’s like, well, in the story is false and the story is false, but the one that like really gets in on that and I’m like, compassion. Because it’s like, that’s not my V voice. To your point, those are the teachers that told me I was stupid. Those are the family members that told me I wasn’t good enough or That I didn’t belong. You know, like. Yeah, it’s, it’s a, like because those are the conditioned thoughts and I took them on at some point as my own.

Mark Divine [00:29:59]:
Acceptance is to accept that it happened.

Catherine Divine [00:30:01]:
Yep.

Mark Divine [00:30:02]:
To accept that you took them on your own.

Catherine Divine [00:30:04]:
Yep.

Mark Divine [00:30:04]:
Right. And, and that they’re. And that they’re part of you. Okay.

Catherine Divine [00:30:07]:
And integrate them and go.

Mark Divine [00:30:09]:
That’s the acceptance part. But it’s not enough because then you’ve got to go and say, okay, and I forgive those people and I forgive my child self for taking those strategies on.

Catherine Divine [00:30:19]:
Right.

Mark Divine [00:30:20]:
Because they served me at the time.

Catherine Divine [00:30:22]:
Absolutely.

Mark Divine [00:30:24]:
So that’s step two and then step three is now how are you going to change the story and your relationship to those triggers? So that’s where meditation and mindfulness comes in and actively deploying loving kindness.

Catherine Divine [00:30:39]:
Right. And so I’m going to flip it on you now because we’re talking about somebody who had been through all our trainings and you know, was extremely. Re. Was rewarded, is air quote successful, has a air quote perfect looking family, all the things.

Mark Divine [00:30:56]:
And that’s fine.

Catherine Divine [00:30:57]:
And I know that you felt like they also, you know, maybe weren’t honest with you or tricked you or you know, infiltrated through false pretenses. And I’m curious you’re. If you know, as this conversation of like emotional intelligence for leaders because people look to you as, you know, a mentor, a guide, as one of those, you know, leadership experts. When that happened to you, what was your emotional response? How did you do what you’re saying to me? You know, like, this is how you go through it.

Mark Divine [00:31:35]:
It took time.

Catherine Divine [00:31:35]:
It took time.

Mark Divine [00:31:36]:
Right.

Catherine Divine [00:31:36]:
For me, okay.

Mark Divine [00:31:37]:
To become aware of what had happened and then to make sure that it doesn’t happen again. That’s really self awareness. Like I, I don’t think that you can, it’s like, it’s like the underlying programming is there.

Catherine Divine [00:31:56]:
Did you feel shame like. Or did you feel anger?

Mark Divine [00:32:00]:
I did, I did feel anger and I went. But I have such a strong forgiveness practice that I went there pretty quickly.

Catherine Divine [00:32:07]:
Yeah.

Mark Divine [00:32:07]:
Don’t dwell on the anger very well. That’s something that I could probably work.

Catherine Divine [00:32:10]:
On because back to you and Moffi. Super like, but also I didn’t hit those pillows. And Hoffman, I didn’t.

Mark Divine [00:32:21]:
I forgave him because I recognize that he, he knows not what he does.

Catherine Divine [00:32:25]:
That’s right.

Mark Divine [00:32:26]:
It’s completely hidden from his view and that’s because he hasn’t done the work.

Catherine Divine [00:32:30]:
Right.

Mark Divine [00:32:31]:
Right. So it doesn’t mean he’s a bad person.

Catherine Divine [00:32:35]:
Absolutely right.

Mark Divine [00:32:36]:
So this is again, no judgment, no judgment zone.

Catherine Divine [00:32:39]:
Yeah.

Mark Divine [00:32:39]:
So this is where you know, you can have a lot of outward success in this western world. Right. You can have a lot of money in the bank, you can be, you can even build great companies and stuff. But at some point you’re not going to be fulfilled.

Catherine Divine [00:32:57]:
Right?

Mark Divine [00:32:58]:
Right. Because you’re going to be trading that kind of performance success for your ability to connect with yourself and with other human beings. Which is really where the richness of life is, right. Is through relationships. And also, you know, honestly the most successful leaders that I’ve seen have done a lot of emotional work.

Catherine Divine [00:33:18]:
Right.

Mark Divine [00:33:19]:
Because that’s how they build great teams. So if you want to build a great team, you’ve got to do the work. And that is the work of self awareness. Right. Becoming and that’s through reading and through therapy and you know, programs like you and I have done the Hoffman process, things like that. But then it’s a daily process of just mindfully watching where those patterns show up and then the story you’re telling about those patterns and then changing the story and like not feeding the negative patterns anymore because negative pattern, if you keep feeding them, right, then they’ll keep on, they’ll stay alive, they’ll get stronger and stronger.

Catherine Divine [00:33:59]:
I think it’s practice too. So like the reason I asked you about that is like, okay, so that’s.

Mark Divine [00:34:03]:
What I’m talking about.

Catherine Divine [00:34:03]:
This is a practice. Like this is a practice, Emotional development is a practice. And so it’s what happens I think because we’re in such a fast paced world and people that are in these positions where let’s say they’re managing thousands of people, you know, like they’re in charge or let’s say they’re responsible for thousands of people but they only have a couple direct. Right. I forget the word, what’s it called? Direct reports. And like I know it’s in there somewhere but that they’re moving really fast. Right. Like every minute is scheduled for the day.

Catherine Divine [00:34:38]:
So like when I ask you like how did you feel? It’s like somewhere in that moment there, there when you recapitulate and you do that, it’s like oh, I was moved there. I’m get, I’m assuming because I know it’s like, oh, I was moving maybe a little too fast right there. And so then that’s part of the emotional development. Was I moving too fast? I already, I still meditated that day. I still, you know, did all my practices, what, what was going on and Then there’s like another layer, right? And that’s like, I feel like we’re never. It’s not about perfection. It’s not about getting done because this is life. It’s about starting to notice the nuances of those, really, those moments and, and having conversations with ourselves and others that will help us practice.

Catherine Divine [00:35:26]:
So, you know, like, I, I would say that that takes a lot of courage too. Is like, okay, if I’m not going to show up as perfect, then, then how do I show up? And what is perfect? Is it, Is it AI? Is it a. Is it a, you know, a robot? You know, like, I, that’s one thing I know. Like, the other day I was in a conversation with somebody and we were in public and they were like, I was getting heated about something. They’re like, well, hey, people are like, looking at us and I’m like, you know, I get so frustrated when people try to tell me to tone down in public because I’m starting to get emotional. Like, the fact that we try to pretend that we are not emotional people, and then we could talk about emotional control. But I’m not, I’m not hurting anybody here. Steamy right now, you know, but I’m not hurting anybody.

Catherine Divine [00:36:14]:
I’m like getting a, like, you know, I’m being passionate and like, why is passion bad, right? Unless it’s in a movie or tell. Like, why can’t we back to our.

Mark Divine [00:36:25]:
Humanness, Back to that walled off grandiose culture? Like, it’s not okay.

Catherine Divine [00:36:30]:
An outlier. Sometimes I’m like, oh, so I need to, like, tone it down because I. We’re at a restaurant, like, you know, and I’m infiltrating through being an emotional human being. Like, I hope I give someone else permission to be emotional by them witnessing this. This is why, like, I’m a little bit of a rebel that way, you know, And I think. I don’t. I think I’m actually pretty emotionally controlled and contained overall. But, you know, you, you can, you can comment on that.

Catherine Divine [00:36:59]:
You’re definitely more emotionally controlled than I am. There’s no doubt about that.

Mark Divine [00:37:05]:
And I’m not walled off anymore.

Catherine Divine [00:37:08]:
You’re not walled off anymore. And I, I noticed. I know the difference of the walled off part and the. I think the walled off part where I would, like, encourage leaders is it’s this, you know, it’s really a heart space. And it’s this, like, are. Are you connected in your space of the us, the love, you know, the like the we. Ness, the. Or is it this Space of like, defensiveness and I have to protect what’s mine and, and, and the conquer conqueror, even mentality.

Catherine Divine [00:37:48]:
And I’m, I’m going off a little bit. No, I agree with you.

Mark Divine [00:37:51]:
We do have to wrap up here. But like, yeah, one of the most powerful tools, as I mentioned, mindfulness. So true, mindfulness is to be a witness to the thoughts and emotions as they arise in your life. But mindfulness also extends to the U.S. yes. And so this is where empathy. So you can practice empathy, like mindful empathy, to where you are just mindfully aware of like, how, how other people showing up, what patterns are being triggered in them.

Catherine Divine [00:38:17]:
Yeah.

Mark Divine [00:38:18]:
And be there for them and just, you know, hold space for the us, for healing. So that is powerful. That’s the practice.

Catherine Divine [00:38:25]:
We’ll have conversations too.

Mark Divine [00:38:27]:
Yeah.

Catherine Divine [00:38:28]:
I mean, I think that this is a big one. With emotional intelligence, like we can keep talking about doing in the inner work, but then with the US There has to be communication. How do we communicate? How do we lean into?

Mark Divine [00:38:38]:
Right. But that’s part and parcel of mindfulness. I don’t mean like I’m mindfully pr. Mindfulness is wherever you go, there you are. Practice. Ultimately. Yes. You start it through a meditative process.

Mark Divine [00:38:49]:
You know, we, we talk about that with our box breathing continuum. Right, right. We get to mindfulness. But we don’t start with mindfulness because your mind’s not ready for it.

Catherine Divine [00:38:57]:
Yes.

Mark Divine [00:38:58]:
Right. You’ve got to learn how to concentrate your mind and settle the thoughts down and, and then you have the capacity to separate and be able to observe your thoughts, which includes emotions.

Catherine Divine [00:39:06]:
Emotions are thoughts and what’s going on behind them.

Mark Divine [00:39:09]:
What I’m suggesting is that you take that into the US Space and you take it on the road with you. And so that holding space mindfully with your team or your significant other or your kids allows the conversation to happen quite naturally and spontaneously or through really thoughtful questions.

Catherine Divine [00:39:32]:
Yeah. And potentially setting up the framework. I just, I know again, we have to wrap up, but like, I. That’s part of it too, is like when we’re going into conversation, especially with significant others, family members, you know, people that are really close in business, leadership or teams, is what’s the framework of this conversation right now? You know, what’s the context? Is this a conversation where we’re just sharing, or is it a conversation where we actually have an outcome that we’re looking for? What is the structure in which we’re going to have this conversation? Are we going to not talk over each other? So I’M going to sit and while you speak, I’ll be quiet. Are we going to use active listening when you speak, I’m going to repeat back exactly what you said to me and then you’re going to clarify if I didn’t get it right. Like there’s so many ways to have. This is part of the emotional intelligence part, I feel that really is effective communication. Effective communication.

Catherine Divine [00:40:34]:
Because otherwise there’s a risk of assumption, projection and domination.

Mark Divine [00:40:42]:
That’s right. Yeah, that’s, that’s a master skill right there.

Catherine Divine [00:40:46]:
It is. I mean I think it’s everything.

Mark Divine [00:40:48]:
I mean that should be taught. Like communication in schools is really about like media.

Catherine Divine [00:40:53]:
Yeah.

Mark Divine [00:40:53]:
But really should be. How do human beings more effectively communicate?

Catherine Divine [00:40:56]:
Well, and that’s like my example, like.

Mark Divine [00:40:58]:
In order to effectively communicate you have to have emotional.

Catherine Divine [00:41:01]:
Is if the person’s like, whoa, whoa, whoa, you know, kind of like settle it down. And then I can be like, oh, am I making you uncomfortable? Yeah, you’re making me. You’re making me uncomfortable. Okay, well then I want to take the person I’m dining with in consideration. I might take a few breaths, right. But I might still say like why, why does it make you uncomfortable that I’m showing emotions in public?

Mark Divine [00:41:20]:
Right.

Catherine Divine [00:41:21]:
You know, like and, or. But I mean definitely always that goes back to these, these pieces of checking in with not only ourselves but others.

Mark Divine [00:41:33]:
Right.

Catherine Divine [00:41:33]:
And then that we are co creating space constantly. You and I are co creating space right now. Right. You and I have a really good dialogue. I check in, I feel like I check in with you if I feel like I’ve offended you. Right. Or if I’ve said something off. It might take me a day or two.

Catherine Divine [00:41:50]:
I’ve always done that for the most part. And you’re like, I’ve already been through my forgiveness practice, you’ll find. But. Right. I mean we check in like that we were. I, I feel that that’s an important part of it. Or instead of running on an assumption and then I might, might be reacting and that like. And I’m talking about our work relationship as well as our personal relationship.

Catherine Divine [00:42:22]:
So that’s, that’s leadership and communication, emotional development. And I would say that like we.

Mark Divine [00:42:29]:
Should create a course on this.

Catherine Divine [00:42:30]:
It’s so all over the place conversations. We are. It’s so dynamic.

Mark Divine [00:42:34]:
There’s so many different vectors. Right. So there is work that we have to do alone for self awareness. You’re listening to stuff like this, reading books like Terry Real’s Us. That’s the theory part. Right. That’s like, oh. And you can get a long way with that.

Mark Divine [00:42:49]:
Aha. Moments like, oh, become quite aware. All of a sudden it could shift your perspective, which can begin the process of transformation. But taking it. I think the key takeaway, I think, is emotional development and developing emotional intellect or intelligence is relational. We have to take it out of the personal development space into this idea of relational development. It’s very difficult to do emotional work alone.

Catherine Divine [00:43:21]:
I mean. I mean. I mean, I will say that, like, I was single for six years, and then I got in a relationship, and I thought I had. I had gone to so many different workshops and learned and therapy and thought I had worked through all the things from my past romantic relationships. And I was like, I’ve got this. You know, and all those triggers get. So much stuff still showed up. And, like, I really had to face myself again.

Catherine Divine [00:43:50]:
And it. And it was beautiful. And I could. And what it showed me is exactly what you’re saying. I’m just like, hammering that home is like, I did not do it in a vacuum. And I thought I did. And so the minute that I. That the most big mirror, which is usually an intimate partner, showed up, it was like, oh, this is why so.

Mark Divine [00:44:09]:
Many people in our culture have done the emotional bypassing.

Catherine Divine [00:44:13]:
Yeah.

Mark Divine [00:44:13]:
They can meditate for 25, 30 years. Right. They get the degrees. And yet they’ve completely denied and suppressed or ignored the relational part.

Catherine Divine [00:44:26]:
Yep. Or avoided.

Mark Divine [00:44:27]:
Or avoided.

Catherine Divine [00:44:28]:
I would say that I. I probably had avoided it a little bit without knowing. And then when I leaned back into it, it was like, oh, that’s maybe why.

Mark Divine [00:44:35]:
So the final, you know, the. The pin in this conversation is that that’s fine. That works in our culture, and you can often get rewarded, but you won’t find true satisfaction. Well, you’ll always be running. You’ll always be running for something.

Catherine Divine [00:44:51]:
Yep.

Mark Divine [00:44:51]:
You won’t find the deep connection with yourself that you’re looking for, and you won’t define the connection with others that you look for. And that’s just too bad, because you’d be missing the real juice of life.

Catherine Divine [00:45:02]:
Yeah. And you won’t be able to sit alone in the dark in silence.

Mark Divine [00:45:06]:
That’s true. And sitting in silence, by the way, is one of the most important things to do. Don’t waste time not doing it.

Catherine Divine [00:45:12]:
No boon jab.

Mark Divine [00:45:13]:
Hashtag. Thanks so much, Kathy.

Catherine Divine [00:45:16]:
Thank you for having me.

Mark Divine [00:45:17]:
These conversations. You’re awesome. Thanks for joining us on the Mark Divine Show. I appreciate you being here. Pay it forward by sharing this episode with your friends. If you thought it was useful, you can rate and review it wherever you listen. That’s very helpful as well. Show Notes will be [email protected] thanks to Katherine and Jet Studios, John Dahlgren and Chase, who helped bring the show to you, as well as my weekly newsletter, which you can subscribe [email protected] so until next time, go get emotionally mature.

Mark Divine [00:45:49]:
Good luck with that.

Catherine Divine [00:45:50]:
Oh yeah, come on out.