[00:00:46] Tom Jones: My pleasure. You know, Mark, last time we were together, I remember one of the last things that I said to you was that during our conversation, I really felt at the end of the conversation, I’m like, wow, this guy is a real asset to humanity.

[00:01:01] Tom Jones: Do you remember that comment? 

[00:01:03] Mark Divine: I think I do. Yeah. I don’t think I took you seriously though. 

[00:01:06] Tom Jones: Well, I can tell you that after going through, pretty much all of your programs that I know of that are available. Wow. Was that an accurate statement? You know, you’re one of the few people that I actually look up to, uh, honestly, you know, normally you have to run.

[00:01:23] Tom Jones: There’s 

[00:01:23] Mark Divine: Chuck Norris, there’s Larry Hamilton and there’s me. So there’s three. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:01:26] Tom Jones: There’s not many, there’s not many. So, and after going through the unbeatable mind foundations course, the way of the seal, so much content that you provide. to make humanity and humans better, happier, healthier, more productive people.

[00:01:43] Tom Jones: I’m even more that statement really is more solidified because I grew tremendously going through those programs. I learned a lot. I’ve been able to, you know, that’s like the third coaching program that I’ve been certified in. And I’ve been able to take Parts of all of those and then take my spin and integrate it into to my particular program.

[00:02:08] Tom Jones: So It’s been life changing That’s good 

[00:02:11] Mark Divine: to hear and you came to it pretty, you know already having achieved some pretty extraordinary things Yeah, and being quit proof yourself, which I want what does that mean to you by the way? 

[00:02:19] Tom Jones: Well quit proof is a mindset, you know once achieved can’t be taken from you except by you You know, it’s really a mindset.

[00:02:27] Mark Divine: Is it a like if you become quit proof Is that a permanent thing like shift in awareness that there’s no going back from or do you think it’s something you have to always work on? 

[00:02:37] Tom Jones: It’s something you always have to work on. It’s like life, you know, you always have to work on it. You’re always having to grind on it, get better.

[00:02:45] Tom Jones: But what I tried to do was give people a really good strong foundation and tools. I think similar to what you do in an unbeatable mind, right? You can give them a real good, strong foundation. You give them tools to work with. But at the end of the day, they’ve got to implement, use the tools. So one of the things that I wanted to do with my program and becoming quit proof was to train and teach people to be their own therapist.

[00:03:13] Mark Divine: Hmm. 

[00:03:14] Tom Jones: Right. I have nothing against going to therapy, but to me, if you really want a job done, right, you do it yourself. Right. And at the end of the day, nobody’s coming to save you, but you. So be your own lifeguard, be your own therapist. Here are the tools. I like that. You know, 

[00:03:29] Mark Divine: I, that kind of jives with some of our teaching in that it’s helpful to have a guide.

[00:03:35] Mark Divine: And so you can say a therapist or a coach is a guide, but their main role is to hold the mirror up for you. Until you can hold it up for yourself. And that’s essentially another way of saying what you just said. Right. So whether it’s spiritual development, emotional development, it’s helpful really to have someone say, here, you know, this is what you’re seeing.

[00:03:52] Mark Divine: I’m seeing the same thing, but you know, right. It’s being reflected back at you. So that then you can do the work and you’re not being told what to do or you’re not, you know You’re not being forced into a certain pattern by it or a 

[00:04:03] Tom Jones: crutch, right? We’re having a crutch having that crutch like I’m gonna go see my therapist It’s like no you’re gonna become your own therapist because my goal when when we work with people on our program when I work with people one on one is To get them to be independent Yeah.

[00:04:18] Tom Jones: To be on their own. What about, I mean, there’s 

[00:04:21] Mark Divine: so much that is hidden from view. That’s why they call it shadow work in the Western psychology. So I agree with what you’re saying, but, and I could see someone saying, great Tom, I’ve got this. I’m going to be my own. I’m going to be self reliant. I’m going to do this.

[00:04:36] Mark Divine: But they can’t see what they can’t see. And the mirror is not going to hold it up because they’re not able to see it. And the mirror is not going to reflect it back because they’re not able to see it to begin with. 

[00:04:45] Tom Jones: Well, the thing is, is that life is the mirror. Right? And if you learn to Be able to calm yourself down, 

[00:04:53] Outro: right?

[00:04:54] Tom Jones: And take an objective look at it, have tools to process it. And also you want to trust a tribe, right? You want a group of people, a community that you can bond with that can help you. Be that mirror and help you mirror that and so on. So that’s why we, you know, like your program, we have what we call the trusted tribe are people that are like-minded and really a community who can Loving, loving, call each other out.

[00:05:19] Tom Jones: Reach out to, yeah. You know what I mean? I know one of the human qualities that we need, food, air, water, love. We need a sense of belonging. Mm-Hmm. and a sense of community. And that’s a foundational need that human beings need. And I think if we give that. To people and we provide them with tools so that they can, you know, really start to figure it out themselves.

[00:05:45] Tom Jones: You know, they’ll be as good as they can be. 

[00:05:49] Mark Divine: Hi, Mark Divine here from seal fit. After two years of development, I’m super stoked to announce the launch of seal fit supplements and our first product seal fit electro greens. This is the highest quality organic greens you can find combined with electrolytes into one powerful supplement.

[00:06:07] Mark Divine: Take with eight ounces of water in the morning or add to your smoothie to get your day kicked off right with a proper nutritional supplementation and hydration support. And you can also use it as a pick me up booster during the day or after a workout. It dissolves immediately and believe it or not, it tastes great.

[00:06:26] Mark Divine: I’ve had many testimonials already saying it’s the best tasting greens. That they have ever tried. So, hoo yah! SilphitSupplements. com or you can find it on Amazon by searching for Silphit Electro Greens. Hoo yah! Let’s do this. Divine out.

[00:06:49] Mark Divine: That is delicious. You mentioned calming down. It seems to me that that is, you know, like if there’s a starting point is to get back into balance and to calm the body down because, you know, the way things are kind of organized in our culture. Like we’re just rushing around and constantly being triggered into, you know, the sympathetic fight or flight.

[00:07:10] Mark Divine: And so people are in a state of hyper arousal and when you’re hyper arousal, like you can’t think clearly, you literally lose like 50 percent of your IQ when you’re in an extreme state of hyper arousal. A hundred percent. And so I think that people just need to start there. And so how do you, how do you help people kind of like, if that’s the entry point for becoming quip proof or for, you know, getting control back, like what do you prescribe?

[00:07:32] Mark Divine: Absolutely. 

[00:07:33] Tom Jones: I take a page right out of your playbook. Box Breathing. Boom. Right? I was hoping you’re going to say that. Pause, Breathe, Think, Act. Right. Oh, I’ve got tattoos all over my body and it’s not going to show them. The principles and the tools that you have are so solid. You know what I mean? I use pause, breathe, think, act so many times with people that I’m working with that are in this downward spiral, you know, the witness interdict, redirect, maintain, you know, but getting them to take that pause is, you know, a process and to develop the witness.

[00:08:08] Mark Divine: Right. The words belie the amount of, you know, practice that it takes to actually be able to implement. Let’s take pause, breathe. Let’s kind of, let’s dig into that a little bit. Pause, breathe, think, act. There’s four words. They sound pretty simple, right? Oh, I just do that. Well, like you said, it takes, it takes training to be able to pause.

[00:08:29] Mark Divine: And also appreciation for what that does. The pause essentially will intercept The reactionary response. Mm hmm. And it actually right just by taking that pause And opening that space up you’re going to be resetting That nervous system correct because it shuts down that sympathetic response and now it gives you the you know You’re kind of like sliding back gives you the opportunity to open up the parasympathetic rest digest calming mechanism which is then done through the breath.

[00:08:57] Mark Divine: Right. So the pause before the breath is really important. A lot of times people will breathe when they’re in the hyperarousal state, but they will breathe in a way that still kind of activates or keeps that sympathetic state activated. 

[00:09:10] Tom Jones: Right. Because they’re, they’re in that, they’re starting to go in that downward spiral.

[00:09:14] Tom Jones: A lot of what you teach too is, is that if you, the sooner you interdict that, the easier it is to, to get that pause. 

[00:09:20] Outro: Right. 

[00:09:20] Tom Jones: And the more you practice it, the more of that neuropathway is developed. And that starts to become your go to move instead of your go to moves, just, you know, downward spiral and who knows what’s involved in that downward spiral, but that pause part of it as you just articulated is so important and so necessary to give you the space, right?

[00:09:41] Tom Jones: That’s the space. In 

[00:09:42] Mark Divine: essence, the pause has got both a, like a, it’s a physical thing because it’s suddenly going from doing to not doing, or about to do something that you shouldn’t be doing to just not doing, but not having to have to fill the space of what It’s next, right? And so for a lot of people, that’s very hard because they want to go from one known to another known.

[00:10:06] Mark Divine: Even if that known is negative, they prefer to go there because it’s comfortable. That’s their go to move. That’s their go to move. So to pause, but not to know what’s next and to be okay with that uncertainty is really powerful, but it’s hard for people, right? Right. 

[00:10:22] Tom Jones: So, but it’s interesting that you say that because it’s equally as powerful.

[00:10:28] Tom Jones: And simple yet hard to do. You know what I mean? Right. It’s, it’s 

[00:10:32] Mark Divine: simple. It’s not easy. And it’s also a practice of mindfulness, you know, in the way that mindfulness was originally kind of brought over to America was mindfulness is that kind of passive watching without, you know, reacting. Yeah. And so you’re combining this really powerful physiological intervention of just stop, allow the nervous system to reset.

[00:10:55] Mark Divine: And then just mindfully watch, you know, that pattern without engaging with that pattern. Right. This is profound and it’s going to take some time, but all that, all that is built into the pause, 

[00:11:07] Tom Jones: right? Right. It’s pretty neat. And then, then the breathing, right? To bring your sympathetic nervous system. 

[00:11:13] Mark Divine: And we need to train that because we have this kind of automatic breathing pattern that is dysfunctional.

[00:11:18] Mark Divine: Big time. Big time. A lot of breathing through the mouth. Right. A lot of, you know, in and out. not breathing very deeply into the lugs, not getting that, you know, the diaphragm movement and the massage of the vagus nerve, all this stuff that like really brings that parasympathetic, you know, and impact. And here’s 

[00:11:33] Tom Jones: another benefit from it.

[00:11:34] Tom Jones: So every morning when I break up, I do between 20 and 30 rounds of box breathing like right away. So when I go up to Laird Hamilton’s house and we do the swimming, we swim the length of the pole so many times without holding your breath. Right. Okay. And I was able to do it maybe up and back once, but now I can get to like three, almost four times.

[00:11:58] Tom Jones: Because of the lung capacity of filling up the whole lung, expanding the diaphragm and everything else. I was like to myself, I was like, you know, that box breathing has like multiple benefits. It really does. Yeah. 

[00:12:10] Mark Divine: I always tell people, I had an individual asked me the days, like when I started box breathing, I was at a four count, you know, four count.

[00:12:17] Mark Divine: You know, inhale, hold, exhale, hold. And now i’m up to a 12. Should I be going to 13 or 14? Should I keep on pushing it? And I said, well, You know what? At its most fundamental level box breathing is not like navy seal breath hold training It can have that benefit if you’re an athlete and you need to want to be able to hold your breath longer But it’s actually probably a contraindication for most people to do that because then that becomes the object of their attention and they’re starting to turn it into a goal, goal process.

[00:12:46] Mark Divine: Whereas box breathing is meant, the way we teach it in Unveiled Mind, is meant to be first an arousal control practice to calm your body and your brain down so that then you can go deeper into concentration. I need to not be captured by, you know, Oh, I’m, I’m shooting for this goal. Get distracted with that 13, you know, second breath holds and whatnot.

[00:13:08] Tom Jones: If I’m focusing on the number that I am on box breathing, that that helps me clear the clutter out of my mind, because I was box breathing and still multitasking and thinking like 30 things at the same time. And I’m like, wait a second, like I need to focus on whatever number that I’m on. And hold that number in my head.

[00:13:27] Tom Jones: And that also, for me anyway, helps with the arousal control too, because I’m clearing the clutter and the noise out of my head. Right. And that, that helps out tremendously and work with people on that and then get, getting them to the thinking stage. Right. Before we 

[00:13:43] Mark Divine: go there, I want to, I want to come back to the breathing because we’re kind of hitting on a really important point that I think a lot of people don’t quite understand or appreciate.

[00:13:50] Mark Divine: So, as you’re alluding to, box breathing, Initially at its first and actually for many people most people even it should only be this for some time weeks if not months arousal control Just breathe in the five count in hold five count hold five count out five can hold And don’t worry about anything else because naturally your mind will calm down The number of thoughts will start to calm down because you’re concentrating on that pattern and just counting, you know One two, three, four five hold one two three five So then what’s happening?

[00:14:24] Mark Divine: You can shift your focus then to the count, and now it becomes an attention control practice, which has enormous benefits for being able to control your attention, to becoming less distractible, to becoming able to hold your attention instead of splitting your attention. Right. And so incredibly valuable, especially for people who are kind of weaned on, you know, social media and, and, you know, all the pings and things.

[00:14:47] Mark Divine: And our 

[00:14:48] Tom Jones: culture in general. 

[00:14:49] Mark Divine: And our culture in general. You know, which wants to keep you distracted. Right. 

[00:14:51] Tom Jones: And with social media, especially now it’s all of a sudden it’s supercharged. Right. Right. And that was just a huge benefit for me personally is what you just described. Right. 

[00:15:01] Mark Divine: And that’s where Box Breathing becomes Zen because Zen It starts out there, it’s concentration, attention control and concentration, and it’s simply a breathing and counting practice, beginning Zen practice.

[00:15:11] Mark Divine: And so Zen actually was, in Chan, in Chinese language, is a concentration practice. And so concentration is really important, built on top of the arousal control, because now we can narrow our range of thoughts to just one thing, and it strengthens our mind, right? It strengthens it, and by focusing on that one thing, then all those other thoughts, that stream of conscious thoughts, Then they get crowded.

[00:15:34] Mark Divine: I could basically ignored and that which you ignore loses energy And so over time that monkey mind where you say I got this monkey mind. Is it going all over the place? It’s because you keep feeding energy right to those thought streams, right? But if you’re now concentrating your energy on one thing that’s holding it there and you practice that every day Then all those popcorn thoughts begin to go away.

[00:15:57] Mark Divine: They begin to settle down and you experience clarity, 

[00:15:59] Tom Jones: right? And you have concentration leads to clear you have the control of the clarity and you’re articulating that but that’s what i’m finding personally is like I have control of the clarity the more I do this the more I have control You can 

[00:16:12] Mark Divine: bring it very quickly.

[00:16:13] Mark Divine: Mm hmm. And also the other side of that is the clarity becomes You know, it’s a metaphor be like it’s it’s a it’s a clear pond So that if suddenly somebody drops a pebble of conflict into it, or you get triggered by something whether it’s internal or external, it just becomes immediately apparent to you.

[00:16:33] Mark Divine: It’s not hidden behind all the other thoughts. And so this is where the think part comes in, because now you’re clear, you’re concentrated, you’re focused on your task, and all of a sudden, boom, you see a ripple in your consciousness over there, and you’re able to see it, and experience it very, very vividly as if from a distance.

[00:16:52] Mark Divine: Because of this training and then you activate the think process 

[00:16:55] Tom Jones: right in the beauty of the two prior moves are The think process to me anyway, personally Is a lot more objective 

[00:17:07] Mark Divine: A lot more proactive. You’re not taking it personally anymore. You’re separated from the thought that thing is happening over there, right?

[00:17:13] Mark Divine: And it’s not me because i’m over here. I’m the one that’s concentrated and clear Right. So now we’re getting into the kind of witnessing right? So who is aware? That they’re clear and able and concentrated. That’s the real you. Right. And now you see over there, like, there’s waves popping up. Well, that’s a thought.

[00:17:30] Mark Divine: That’s a thought stream. We call them fear loops. Right. And so you can look at it objectively and be like, hmm, how do I want to handle this? Right a great acronym. My wife told me about which I think I’m gonna start using We’re in a trade market and be honest It’s think is uh, so so your response then is the T is thoughtful The H is helpful.

[00:17:50] Mark Divine: The I is it’s important, but you don’t respond if it’s not important. The N is it’s necessary and The K is it’s got to be kind So it’s very similar to like, you know Well, it’s a way to to to Um, to reflect upon how you were going to respond or react versus first deciding whether it requires a response, because a lot of times it doesn’t, but if it does require a response, then to formulate that response in a way that is thoughtful, helpful, important, necessary and kind, that requires you to pause even more and to like put a little thought into your response.

[00:18:32] Tom Jones: What I do myself. And what I’m getting better at, which I was horrible at, at first, and what I try to work with people to do is to ask themselves this question. Is what I’m about to say going to get me the result that I’m looking for? 

[00:18:47] Mark Divine: Yeah, I like that. You know, my Navy SEAL commander, Captain O’Connell, used to say, Before you do an action, ask yourself, Would I like to read about this in the New York Times on a Monday morning?

[00:18:59] Mark Divine: They call it the New York Times test. That’s right. That’s a good 

[00:19:02] Tom Jones: test because I can tell you one thing personally, I have failed that test measurably plenty of times. I’ve only had to do so much damage control. Now I’m asking myself repeatedly is what I’m about to say going to get me the result that I’m looking for, not hurt somebody else’s feelings, not, you know, make matters worse, you know, all of those things.

[00:19:22] Tom Jones: And, and that takes, Maybe another five rounds of box breathing. 

[00:19:27] Mark Divine: You know, all this preparatory pause, breathe, think, you know, and the process of thinking clearly and, and Formulating your thoughts carefully like we’re talking about Then when it comes to act the act is easy. It’s effortless correct because you’re very clear This is this is it, you know 

[00:19:46] Tom Jones: and something you said I think that’s super important Is is that sometimes taking no action is the best action?

[00:19:53] Tom Jones: That’s right, and I honestly Truly have experienced that myself. I used to think there has to be something I have to do right? Well doing nothing is something 

[00:20:02] Mark Divine: It’s doing something 

[00:20:03] Tom Jones: 100 percent 

[00:20:04] Mark Divine: or said another way doing nothing is not doing no thing. It’s still a thing. 

[00:20:09] Tom Jones: Yeah, it’s still in action, right? And it still matters.

[00:20:12] Tom Jones: And it still can make a huge difference, uh, especially for the positive. 

[00:20:16] Mark Divine: No doubt. That’s fascinating. Love this. It’s like a mini course. 

[00:20:20] Tom Jones: It’s crazy how, how all of the information that I’ve been able to proactively that has been provided to me that I’ve been able to proactively get. I mean, People that know me know I’m the real deal.

[00:20:33] Tom Jones: I haven’t found one piece of bull and the whole basket. Nothing. Everything is completely legit. Matters. It’s pertinent. Makes a difference. It’s solid. You mean in the unbeatable mind basket or the world basket? No, the unbeatable mind basket, the Mark divine basket. Oh, that’s a good basket. Yeah. The Mark divine basket and the way of the CEO, all of it.

[00:20:56] Tom Jones: You know, I’ve gone through most of your YouTube. Breathe daily briefs and all that stuff and i’m not on a witch hunt. I’m, just i’m on a hunt for really good, solid information that makes a difference, a positive difference in your life. And everything that I have come across and I’ve been proactive and going out and seeking on top of it has been really valuable.

[00:21:18] Tom Jones: And I think that that’s a real testament to your life experience, you know, your experience of going out and seeking things and pulling that into the mix, all good, solid, valuable stuff. 

[00:21:31] Mark Divine: Yeah. Thanks. 

[00:21:32] Tom Jones: Yeah. 

[00:21:32] Mark Divine: I’m going to start doing more teaching through this podcast too. It’s why it’s fun to have this conversation like this, you know, the interview styles is fun.

[00:21:39] Mark Divine: Like I love this, but oftentimes, you know, it doesn’t allow me the platform to teach. So I’m going to kind of shift focus pretty soon here. I think that’s a great idea. Solo podcast and teaching style 

[00:21:50] Tom Jones: because you have tons to bring to the party and to convolute that with other stuff, I think. I don’t want to call it a disservice, but what I want to call it is, is that you, you can bring a lot to the party by doing exactly what you just said, because you have a lot to bring to the party.

[00:22:08] Tom Jones: That’s at least for my life has been very legit, very life changing in a positive way. And I’ve been able to use a lot of that and some other stuff that I’ve learned in some other programs and other stuff that I’ve come up with myself to make people’s lives better. And you know, that’s at the end of the day, what it’s all about.

[00:22:26] Mark Divine: Yeah. I’m curious. I know we want to talk about Uncommon, the book, and a little bit more about yours. So I want to ask you though, because I’m curious about Chuck Norris. Okay. You know, because I grew up knowing Chuck just like a lot of people did, right? He was kind of a little hero. What was his philosophy of living and what did you learn from him that was unique?

[00:22:45] Tom Jones: The most important thing that I learned from him that changed my life and my life direction was I bodyguarded Chuck part time and I was part time training partner with him when he needed a bodyguard. And if the bodyguard wasn’t available or anything, he’d say, Hey, can you pick me up at the airport or 

[00:23:02] Mark Divine: What years were this?

[00:23:03] Mark Divine: Like, situate us. 

[00:23:04] Tom Jones: 86 to 89 ish. Okay. Right in those areas. So one time, I needed to pick him up from the airport late at night. So I go to pick him up from the airport late at night. He comes out. 

[00:23:17] Mark Divine: Most people would be curious why Chuck Norris would need a bodyguard. 

[00:23:20] Tom Jones: Oh, Chuck Norris absolutely needs a bodyguard because people will attack Chuck Norris or Chuck Norris will beat the crap out of him so that they can hardly sue the hell out of him.

[00:23:29] Tom Jones: Is that right? Oh yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. And he also needs it for protection because there’s one Chuck Norris and I can tell you that bodyguarding him in other countries, okay, in the United States of America, Chuck Norris is a celebrity, but in some countries people weep. They charge him. I mean, it’s nuts, nuts.

[00:23:48] Tom Jones: People just go animal. They go on auto animal. I’ve seen people fall to the ground, crying, all kinds of stuff, especially when he was like in his prime popular and stuff, he was one of the most recognized faces on planet earth. And in the United States, people are super sue happy. They’ll come at him just so they can sue him just so they can get hit.

[00:24:09] Tom Jones: So those are some of the reasons that Chuck needed a bodyguard. 

[00:24:14] Mark Divine: Interesting. 

[00:24:14] Tom Jones: Yeah. So I go to pick him up at the airport late at night, little kid comes running up out of nowhere. And screaming his name and stuff. Chuck got down and mentored the kid for about half hour. 

[00:24:25] Mark Divine: Okay. 

[00:24:26] Tom Jones: Oh yeah. Chuck Norris is an amazing human being.

[00:24:31] Tom Jones: He is humble. If you were to have a conversation with him and you knew that he was not Chuck Norris, when you left that conversation, you wouldn’t know that he was Chuck Norris anyway, either. He’s that kind of a guy. So he’s mentoring the kid and tells the kid, okay, got to kind of, break it up here. And he stands up and he looks over at me and he says, you know, Tom, the more people that you can figure out how to help in your life, the more successful that you’ll be, not only financially, but in every way.

[00:25:02] Tom Jones: And right then and there was like the biggest why exploded in my heart. And I thought to myself, I got to help people because they can’t help people. And that’s the right thing to do. And at the time I didn’t know how to, I was going to do it, but it sure sounded like a legit, uh, Idea to me and it ended up that that became my life’s work after the professional fighting career Because fighting was great for a minute.

[00:25:30] Tom Jones: I won. Yeah, and then what right and then you’re back to the dungeon or in my case I was back to being a unhappy human being Yeah, let’s 

[00:25:40] Mark Divine: go there. You were, you were an orphan as a kid, right? And probably had a lot of demons and a lot of childhood trauma. What was the inflection point for you, right? Where you decided to take control and, and to not play the victim?

[00:25:52] Mark Divine: And how did that happen for you? Because a lot of people kind of get stuck there. the story about the two twin brothers who grew up like that. And one of them, I feel that none of your money, 

[00:26:03] Tom Jones: such a good question. 

[00:26:03] Mark Divine: One of them was super successful and the other was on the streets and they both had the same answer.

[00:26:08] Mark Divine: They said, I had no choice because of the way I brought up. 

[00:26:11] Tom Jones: Exactly. I know that story well in the inflection point. So I was removed from my home when I was 12 for extreme child abuse. I was put into an institution that was run by pedophiles. Oh, good. So. I dealt with that for about four years until I ran away from that institution and I was I was a mess I was a mess on drugs.

[00:26:30] Tom Jones: I was a mess because I was trying to numb myself. Are you in your teens now or what? Yeah, I was in my late teens ended up going in the marine corps. That was a really great shift for me, but that wasn’t the inflection point. Right. After I got out of the Marine Corps, someone that was very close to me died.

[00:26:46] Tom Jones: I went back into a dark place, ended up going to drug rehab two times. Although I started bodyguarding a guy that ran the largest computer memory vending company in the world. And his name was Glenn McCusker. And he had Reggie Jackson, Joe Montana, race car driver named Jacques Villeneuve. They were on his payroll and he used them to like send them to customers to play golf with Reggie Jackson and they made more orders.

[00:27:14] Tom Jones: So anyway, to make a long story short, he asked me to, to cover for Reggie Jackson, to go to a children’s facility that was much like the facility that I went to without the pedophiles. And. Do a tour, visit the kids and so on. And I didn’t want to do it. So I did it. And the first place we went was the infants.

[00:27:33] Tom Jones: There was a kid came out with a full body cast. I started crying. The lady that was with me said, where are you crying? You know, I thought the kid fell down. I was like, no, the kid’s been beaten. So I went through the toddlers where they come and cling to you and then the adolescence. And then when they get a little bit, past that where they shut down and their just eyes are black.

[00:27:52] Tom Jones: And all of that stuff just resonated to me. Well, anyway, they wanted a playground and I didn’t know how to help them, right? Cause I wanted to help them get the playground. And that’s where I dreamed up running from Oregon to Mexico the first time to help raise money for the playground. So the inflection point to answer your question was when we dedicated that playground.

[00:28:10] Mark Divine: After you 

[00:28:10] Tom Jones: ran. After I ran. And we dedicated that playground and those kids started playing on that playground. My life changed forevermore. I was like, this is what I’m doing with my life. That is amazing. Don’t do it because fighting was one thing, but there was no fulfillment in it. 

[00:28:25] Mark Divine: You brought, you brought joy to those kids.

[00:28:28] Mark Divine: And 

[00:28:28] Tom Jones: they brought joy back to me and I felt fulfilled and I felt like my life had a purpose and I felt like I could use my athletic ability to champion worthwhile causes because I knew that I could do. Things that most people couldn’t do athletically and people would want to know why. When I opened up the door for why, then I could share the wonderful thing that I was doing with them.

[00:28:46] Tom Jones: But really, Chuck Norris started it way back when, and that’s where the intersection of it was. Right. And I was like You planted 

[00:28:53] Mark Divine: the seed and it came to fruition there. Right then and there. 

[00:28:56] Tom Jones: That’s very cool and I have not stopped doing it since and it became like good. So is that’s your 

[00:29:00] Mark Divine: why when you, you know, like when I met you first, I think you had just finished doing like a hundred marathons in a hundred days or something like that.

[00:29:07] Mark Divine: I 

[00:29:07] Tom Jones: did the 121 a hundred days. I just finished the 76 marathons in a row last year. I think I was off of paddling. The East coast, right? 

[00:29:18] Mark Divine: Yeah. So when you’re in those, right, so let’s do mental toughness 1 0 1 by Tom Jones. Like, okay, because you know. I think about running one marathon and I’m already like, okay, no problem.

[00:29:29] Mark Divine: I can do that, but it’s going to suck. But then to get up the next day and do it again and then again and again, like that takes some serious mental fortitude. Like, so what’s going through your mind? How do you, and when you’re on that like day 30 and you’re just like, holy crap, I’m not even a third way through this thing.

[00:29:47] Mark Divine: How do you stay? How do you stay quick proof? How do you stay quick proof? 

[00:29:51] Tom Jones: Well, it’s the first chapter of my book, the compass and the catalyst. Right? It’s the Y. Yes. That Y, that rock solid Y. And how do 

[00:30:00] Mark Divine: you keep it in the forefront of your mind all the time? 

[00:30:03] Tom Jones: The way that I keep it in the forefront of my mind is when I sit down on the side of the road and start crying my eyes out.

[00:30:09] Tom Jones: How often does that happen by the way? Well, it happens less and less often because it takes time to do that. And I always get up and start running again. Because when I ran across the nation, the only agreement I had with myself was if I can physically put one foot in front of the other, I won’t stop.

[00:30:24] Tom Jones: Right. And every time I stopped at a children’s home and shared my story that gave me so much energy to go to the next one because I daisy chained them. I did the same thing when I ran California. I daisy chained them, but I would sit down on the side of the road. And when I started the 121 in a row, I started in the month of July.

[00:30:41] Tom Jones: So I was the Grand Marshal for the 4th of July parade in Huntington Beach, and I kept running. So I ran across the Mojave Desert in July, Rocky Mountains in August. Was brutal. So I would sit down on the side of the road and I would cry and cry and go, I can’t do this anymore. I just can’t do this anymore.

[00:30:57] Tom Jones: I just can’t do this anymore. This sucks. Whose idea was this? It was your idea, idiot.

[00:31:04] Tom Jones: And then I It was that mirror. 100%. Yeah, and then I would have this come to Jesus moment with myself and I was like, At the end of the day, I can actually take another step, right? So I get up, I Dry my eyes off and I’d keep going. So after a while I would dispense with that. You know, David Goggins would never admit that 

[00:31:24] Mark Divine: he said on the side of the road and cried, but I bet you he has.

[00:31:27] Mark Divine: Oh, guaranteed. Guaranteed. He a hundred percent, 

[00:31:30] Tom Jones: a hundred percent. Has he, if he hasn’t, I, no, he has, he has, you know, so after a while I would just, I would start the crying thing and I would go. Screw that, that’s a half hour of time that I’m going to waste. I’m going to do that. I’m going to be late to the kids.

[00:31:47] Tom Jones: A hundred percent, yeah. What’s your mantra when you’re, you know, just trudging along? I’ve adopted some of yours. Easy day, I got this. One of the mantras I’ve had for a long time is go Tom go. That’s a good one, simple. Yeah. And what’s the power of the mantra for you? Redirect into positivity. Right? It’s that redirection.

[00:32:08] Tom Jones: You know, you’re, you’re starting to go down a slippery slope. 

[00:32:11] Mark Divine: Mm-Hmm, . 

[00:32:11] Tom Jones: And the mantra is a way, it’s a net, it’s a safety net, right? To rebound you back into positivity, and you maintain that until, just like you teach wi witness interdict redirect. The, the mantras are redirections maintain. That happens again, rinse and repeat.

[00:32:26] Tom Jones: For me now, the mantras are like the early warning. system. Right. That’s right. When I start to hear it, when I start to hear that voice, F this, whatever, the negative stuff immediately, I start slamming into the mantras. You gotta 

[00:32:41] Mark Divine: intercept that right away. People don’t appreciate how deleterious negative self talk is.

[00:32:49] Mark Divine: You know what they say, where the mind leads, the body will follow. So as soon as you start talking to yourself, I can’t do this, I’m not sure, why did I do this, this sucks, then you’re weakening your body. You know, we know that from kinesiology, you’re just starting to get weaker, and then that becomes a self fulfilling.

[00:33:04] Mark Divine: The weaker the body, the weaker you get, then the more negative you’re going to get. Yeah. What I tell 

[00:33:09] Tom Jones: people is, who’s listening to you? Right. You are. You are. Yeah. And who do you trust? Your body will believe it And who do you listen to the most? You! Who do you listen to the most in life? You listen to yourself the most in life.

[00:33:24] Tom Jones: So then people will tell me like, Oh, I’m fat. Don’t be surprised if you’re fat. Oh, I’m out of shape. Don’t be surprised if you’re out of shape. Right. You’re literally programming that into your computer, your mind. That’s the program. That’s the keystrokes that you’re keystroking into your mind. And the thing that, like, definitely perplexes me is how people, unless without the help, they can’t put those connections together.

[00:33:50] Tom Jones: Right. And hey, hey, if you talk to yourself this way, that’s the result you’re going to get. It’s back to 

[00:33:54] Mark Divine: what we said earlier that most people haven’t developed the capacity to, to separate themselves from their thoughts. Mm hmm. They’re so intimate with their thoughts because they’ve never done any self awareness.

[00:34:06] Mark Divine: Right. To be able to open up that gap. Right. So therefore they are their thoughts and therefore they become their thoughts. 

[00:34:11] Tom Jones: Right. Right. And that’s why what we do is so important for. the world, you know, and the people, the inhabitants of the world, right? The human, the human beings, I would say it’s important for all, all other beings too.

[00:34:26] Tom Jones: I totally agree because negative human beings are very destructive. They’re very destructive, but they’re also human beings. And the thing that separates you and I, from a lot of the individuals is that we have the street credibility. 

[00:34:41] Mark Divine: It’s a good point. You know, I’ve had a lot of people say that to me, especially guys like, you know, when they never would have touched yoga or breathing or meditation coming from, you know, like we’ll take Catherine for instance, my, my lovely stepdaughter, she’s a master yogi, but my SEAL trainees wouldn’t have accepted it if I hadn’t also been right there saying, this is critical.

[00:35:04] Tom Jones: I got into it because of you. I mean, I did stretching and so on, but I got into yoga. because of the corollary yoga. And if Catherine saw me do yoga, she’d be horrified, but I do it. It’s the act of doing it. I’ve been broke so many times. I’m just like, I don’t know. They’re going to have to come up with a new pose name, the twisted animal.

[00:35:26] Tom Jones: I don’t know. It’s pretty funny. I embarrassed myself. I’m going to still going to do it, but I’m glad nobody’s looking. 

[00:35:35] Mark Divine: Yoga is so healing. But you know, I’m glad you brought that up because we just taught by four or five hour yoga. Catherine taught a four or five hour yoga clinic to my clients just the other day.

[00:35:45] Mark Divine: And most people think yoga is just. Stretching. Yeah. Or even exercise. You know, like power, core power yoga. And it’s not. Yoga is the science of mental development, right? It is the complete system for developing the mind, which includes the body. Mm hmm. Because from that cosmology or philosophy, the mind and the body are not separate.

[00:36:05] Tom Jones: Correct. 

[00:36:05] Mark Divine: So you’re training the body, you’re training the mind, you’re training the mind. You gotta train, you gotta use the body. 

[00:36:10] Tom Jones: And I think the more alpha you are, the more important it is. That’s right. I really do. Well, because 

[00:36:15] Mark Divine: you, you know, the alpha guys. Separate body and mind and they generally use the body, you know for force instead of power, right?

[00:36:25] Mark Divine: And then the mind being disconnected or dissociated from the body doesn’t get to experience heart Yeah or intuition. 

[00:36:31] Tom Jones: Yeah, 

[00:36:32] Mark Divine: it’s all together. That’s why in in my book uncommon I have the five mountains, but the first mountain is the physical mountain. It’s first for a reason Right? So you think about that, so we have physical, then mental, then emotional, then intuitional, and then spiritual.

[00:36:47] Mark Divine: And we use the term kakoro, which means whole mind, or merge heart and mind. Well if you just jump, so a lot of people want to go, you know, want to go to hero and not start at zero, right? And so they’re like, Oh, I’m all spiritual, but they’re not healthy. And physically, their body is not healthy. You know in shape or they want to try to do some emotional work, but physically they’re not healthy Well, the problem with that is a healthy body Unhealthy body also means you have an unhealthy brain Because the two are not separate correct.

[00:37:20] Mark Divine: And so if your brain is unhealthy Then your thinking is going to be unhealthy So the five thinking is unhealthy then you’re not going to be effective at spiritual emotional and intuitive and spiritual development So you’ve got this is just like you know, you’re a martial artist, right? And like I use the karate kid as an example So the kid goes to miyagi and they say teach me all your fancy techniques and miyagi says Wax on wax off go paint the fence or wax the fence.

[00:37:47] Mark Divine: Yeah, and what he’s really saying is Go get your body and your brain and your attitude ready to learn. And in the yoga tradition, we have the ethical principles and how you’re supposed to relate to other people and yourself. They call them the yamas and niyamas. Those are kind of like the 10 commandments of yoga.

[00:38:08] Mark Divine: Go work on those. And then the asana comes. That is what we think of as yoga. That is now go work on your body so that your body and your brain are suitable. For the next stage of development, which is breath, right? working with life force pranayama And then as the work with the life force Starts to work its magic because we as we talked about earlier The breath is a bridge between the physiology and then the psychology and then your spiritual center.

[00:38:35] Mark Divine: So it draws you progressively inward so after the breath comes Basically working with your senses which we could call intuition development Sensory awareness, being able to, you know, not be distracted from the external world sense, you know, input, being able to be really in tune with the internal senses and then They get into concentration and then meditation.

[00:38:59] Mark Divine: Yeah, isn’t it interesting? Well, yeah, because it’s like the belts and it’s like the 

[00:39:02] Tom Jones: belts in martial arts, right? It’s a little bit from a right belt to a black belt You don’t 

[00:39:06] Mark Divine: jump right in the meditation because you’re not prepared 

[00:39:09] Tom Jones: for right or a recipe You don’t throw this in before that. This is the Ascension.

[00:39:14] Tom Jones: This is the belt Ascension to your black belt So you’re the closest thing we have to a 

[00:39:18] Mark Divine: path similar to yoga is the martial arts and even that is Most people just teach it in terms of a progression of movements. Correct. But it was meant to be the progression of evolutionary development of body mind systems so that it was ready to really Open up to the higher stages 

[00:39:34] Tom Jones: and that’s how martial arts has gone too Is is that when I was a kid in martial arts you meditated you did breath work.

[00:39:40] Tom Jones: You did jiu jitsu all of that and Over time they watered a lot of that stuff out so that it would be easier to ascend Right. Right. To a black belt, where, really, what is a black belt? You ask so many black belts what a black belt is, they don’t know. Right. The answer is you’re a master of the basics.

[00:39:57] Mark Divine: That’s right. That’s what it means. It’s the beginning. Right. You’re ready 

[00:40:00] Tom Jones: to learn. You’re ready to learn. 

[00:40:01] Mark Divine: Right. The reason I brought Uncommon out, and, you know, now you know, like, there, the physical mountain comes before the mental, then the emotional, intuitive, and spiritual. There can be overlaps, because like I said earlier, you’re training, the physical trains the mind.

[00:40:15] Mark Divine: Right. And then by training the mind it gives you the opportunity to see the emotions or experience the emotion. Now, now you can train the emotions. So these, these are not really separate, but we can talk about them separately. Right. And we can train them in a progression. So uncommon is the five mountains of unbeatable mind as a developmental path, which is uncommon in our Western world.

[00:40:42] Mark Divine: Oh God. Nobody talks about developmental paths. Right. As you know, like the spiritualists would say, there’s a thousand paths up the mountain, the mountain being your evolution, you’re into enlightenment, to awakened awareness, to wholeness, to experience of life as heaven on earth, peace, equanimity, balance, nirvana, whatever you want to call it, samadhi, satori, you know, all of those, that’s like the path to.

[00:41:05] Mark Divine: Ideally, or in reality, it’s not like out there up some mountain. Um, it’s. It’s in here. So the path is actually an inward path. We just use language because you know, it’s hard to describe That to people so we say, okay, we’re climbing these mountains It’s a developmental journey. There’s certain fundamental prerequisites just like in the navy seals.

[00:41:27] Mark Divine: You gotta learn how to you know, shoot do the trigger pull, front sight focus, get the target on the 25 meter, you know, target before you, like, try shooting at a moving target out of a helicopter. Let’s just say. Right? There’s some prerequisites. Right. Oh, yeah. No kidding. There’s 

[00:41:41] Tom Jones: prerequisites. Before you go jump out of the helicopter, you might want to have these things kind of down.

[00:41:48] Tom Jones: So that’s the 

[00:41:49] Mark Divine: simple principles of extraordinary life. They’re simple, but you just got to 

[00:41:52] Tom Jones: do them. Did you feel that that the five mountains, you extracted that. And I’m thinking that you felt that if a person could get those five principles in order down, that they would really just have such an upgrade in their life.

[00:42:12] Tom Jones: Right. And if they could just get that, their arms around that, right. They live a happier, healthier, more productive life. I’m, I’m thinking the answer is hell. Yeah, absolutely. 

[00:42:22] Mark Divine: And, and, If they head on that path and they stay with a practice in particular, the breathing, concentration, meditation, visualization, that is the, you know, you become like your own, um, archaeologist and you just begin to excavate the internal, you know, domain.

[00:42:43] Mark Divine: And it will lead you where you’re, where you need to go. Because ultimately, once you develop that capacity to sit down and go within every day. Then, then, you have little clues and you become your own guide. That’s what the term sad guru means. You become your own guide, like your own inner guru. Right. At that point, this is why in the Zen tradition or the yoga traditions, ultimately the guru, the good gurus would kick their best students out.

[00:43:10] Mark Divine: Sure. Because now the guru was the obstacle. 

[00:43:12] Tom Jones: Right. 

[00:43:13] Mark Divine: And the individual needed to find their own inner guru. Right. 

[00:43:16] Tom Jones: Absolutely. Absolutely. Same as the bird knocks the bird out of the nest and makes it fly on its own. And so often times the guru, there’s classic 

[00:43:23] Mark Divine: cases where the guru would start contradicting himself.

[00:43:26] Mark Divine: And the student would think he lost his mind and so leaves in a huff. Right. And it was intentional. 

[00:43:31] Tom Jones: Yeah, 100 percent to get you the hell out of there and get you going on your own path because it’s that time. It’s that time, right. Yeah. And they won’t, they don’t, people don’t want to let go. Yeah. To the teacher.

[00:43:42] Tom Jones: And, and, yeah, but, and I felt, and I’m proud, I took the five mountains in orders. I did. Good job. I did. I took it in, I took them in order. They were, they were awesome. You know. They’re presented that way 

[00:43:55] Mark Divine: in the foundation course. Yeah. And, but I don’t make the distinction, I don’t say just work on the physical mountain.

[00:44:01] Mark Divine: Until you’re done because there’s no done the point is to begin the process 

[00:44:05] Tom Jones: integrate that into the integrated understand it develop 

[00:44:08] Mark Divine: that You know habituate the disciplines, right? To get really healthy and it’s not hard and anybody can do it Even if you’re listening to this right now and you’re like, well, i’m 150 pounds of weight great We have a client who just lost 150 pounds and it took him a year and a half.

[00:44:21] Mark Divine: He just Just trusted the process. Yes started eating better started sleeping better. He’s box breathing every day Exercising, you know and just Yeah, he couldn’t do much in the beginning and now he’s, now, he’s doing a lot. 

[00:44:34] Tom Jones: And one of the chapters in my book is, is the opportunity and the, the adversity and the opportunity.

[00:44:40] Tom Jones: And that’s what I like to do, is I need to, to work with people to find the opportunity and the adversity. 

[00:44:45] Mark Divine: Yeah. 

[00:44:46] Tom Jones: And I have people that come to me and like have these problems. I go, well, look at me. Right. 

[00:44:51] Mark Divine: You 

[00:44:51] Tom Jones: know, look at my background. And look where the whole human condition 

[00:44:54] Mark Divine: is one obstacle after another.

[00:44:56] Mark Divine: That’s where you can embrace the suck or like Ryan holiday says, make the obstacle the way, or you can look at them all as insurmountable barriers. And it’s always comes down to that choice, 

[00:45:05] Tom Jones: that perspective, perspective, right? And, and it’s interesting that, you know, what I like to do is always flip the coin over and look at the other side of the coin, no matter what.

[00:45:14] Tom Jones: And that’s been incredibly beneficial for me. And the more I do it, the more beneficial I see how. The other side of the coin is for the other side of the coin. 

[00:45:25] Mark Divine: We used to have a saying in the seals, failure is not an option. It’s very similar to quick proof because you would say, well, I don’t get it. Does that mean I can’t fail?

[00:45:34] Mark Divine: And the point was, no, it’s completely the opposite. The other side of the coin, what we’re saying is, Failure doesn’t exist. It’s actually not an option. Not that you can’t fail. It’s that every obstacle is an opportunity. Yeah. So the opposite side of failure is opportunity. Correct. Don’t look at something and say, Oh, I’m going to fail.

[00:45:50] Mark Divine: Look at something and say, Oh, that’s interesting. Right. There’s a new opportunity to learn something new here. That’s why seals are so darn successful, right? Like people think it’s because we’re tough. No, it’s because 

[00:46:00] Tom Jones: we’re being overrun. Good. Opportunity. 100 percent opportunity. I love that. Yeah. So I used to do that instinctively and that’s how I’ve gotten to where I am.

[00:46:11] Tom Jones: And now I figured it out and been able to package it and been able to present it to people in a way that they can palatize it and they can embrace it. And like you just said, embrace the suck. The suck is good. Adversity is part of the human condition. So the question is, okay, now what? So now what? Yeah, adversity is 

[00:46:29] Mark Divine: the marrow of life, right?

[00:46:31] Mark Divine: It is. That’s where the good stuff is. And if you’re always avoiding it, you know, you’re just gnawing on the bones. They’re going to be dried bones. So you’re not going to get much nutrition. We’re 

[00:46:40] Tom Jones: doing the book, right? The book, my book’s about post traumatic growth. Right. There’s life after trauma. Here’s a memoir and a manual on how to do it.

[00:46:48] Tom Jones: So anyway, the statistics say that 90 percent of the people, 90 percent of human beings will have experienced some significant trauma in their life. My statement is always, I like to meet the 10 percent that haven’t. Yeah. Are they in the womb? Maybe 

[00:47:02] Mark Divine: the term significant there is, and they’re saying significant is like sexual trauma.

[00:47:07] Mark Divine: or abuse because I agree with you 100 percent of humans experience trauma and trauma is relative traumatic but 

[00:47:13] Tom Jones: it’s relative 

[00:47:13] Mark Divine: that’s the original trauma right but trauma is 

[00:47:16] Tom Jones: relative so I think everybody experiences because hey you weren’t removed from your home for having guns pointed at your head and knives held at your throat and all kinds of stuff like that although your traumatic thing is just as traumatic to you right it’s relative because it’s relative 

[00:47:34] Outro: right 

[00:47:34] Tom Jones: and and so the question becomes how can I Make this lemon or what I perceive to be a lemon into lemonade.

[00:47:42] Tom Jones: And how can I see all lemons as lemonade automatically? 

[00:47:47] Mark Divine: Absolutely. Yeah, I love that. I’m going to go back to hidden trauma again. I remember, this is bringing up memory, doing a podcast with someone who had some, you know, some fantastic emotional development program that he said was, you know, really, you know, he was making claims about how powerful it was.

[00:48:03] Mark Divine: That’s it. And I said, well, tell me, let’s talk about your childhood. You know, what, what was your childhood? Like what were your traumas, you know, cause you’re teaching, you know, overcoming trauma. And he’s like, no, I had the perfect childhood. I said, really? 

[00:48:16] Tom Jones: That’s like going to a doctor that smokes.

[00:48:24] Tom Jones: Says, Hey man, you ought to quit smoking. 

[00:48:26] Mark Divine: Really? You, you had a perfect childhood and, uh, you know, I couldn’t really on the podcast, you know, kind of like, Call him out of that because he was so, well, sure he was so cocksure of that, but you can ask this guy, say, okay, when did you first become aware that you were in a separate human being, an individual self with a name?

[00:48:48] Mark Divine: And most people can’t really identify that, but it’s somewhere around four or five years old until then. Everything is traumatic. Because you come out of the womb and you’re an undifferentiated being and the world is your first trip is very traumatic Yeah, the first trip is traumatic Forget about what karmas, you know, it’s tough.

[00:49:08] Mark Divine: You might have brought karma. They used to hit you right after that The moment you’re separated from your mother trauma trauma Right, if your parents are in the other room having an argument, even if it’s just not even like they’re not even really mad But their voices are raised trauma Right And who hasn’t fallen down or been dropped or, you know what I mean?

[00:49:31] Mark Divine: There are innumerable traumas that happen and that child, it’s pre verbal and doesn’t have the cognition or the language or any way to really process. And so it just gets imprinted into the body. And then later on, the next seven years when they start to develop cognitive capacities, when those trauma energies first, you know, Three to five years begin to get triggered or manifested.

[00:49:57] Mark Divine: Then, with a very immature brain, they begin to name and to say, That’s bad. Right. And they suppress it and they deny it. And so then you get all the repression. That’s the John Wick thing, 

[00:50:11] Tom Jones: right? Good dog. Bad dog. Yeah, 

[00:50:14] Mark Divine: exactly. So anyways, my point is that that is the human experience. It is, yeah. You don’t have to have, you know, been dropped off in a paper bag at the Masonic Temple.

[00:50:24] Tom Jones: Do you feel that you learn your go to moves in that second section that you were talking about? 

[00:50:29] Mark Divine: Yes. The three major sections are, you know, 0 to 7, 6 to 7, 7 21. So there is still some trauma and like Um, shadow memories being created in a third, mostly around relationships, right? Because we go from, you know, self to self to other with our parents, but then we begin to expand out in 14 to 21 to, to like relations with others, peers, girlfriend, boyfriends.

[00:50:55] Mark Divine: And there’s a lot of trauma that happens there. You know, bullying, getting let down by a significant other. Your first, Love, you know dumps. Yeah, and I remember those as being 

[00:51:08] Tom Jones: very Yeah, yeah, I got some shadow work to do 

[00:51:13] Mark Divine: My point is as adults we tend to especially men Tend to blow that stuff off for sure.

[00:51:19] Mark Divine: They laugh it off They say oh, that’s just youthful stuff and then they don’t deal with it and yet it just comes back time and time again And we call it in Unveiled Mind, you’re aware of this, your background of obviousness, right? It’s, it’s behind you. It’s like the operating system. It’s not the software program where your thoughts are running.

[00:51:37] Mark Divine: It’s, it’s subconscious, subconscious, and it’s not obvious to you, but who’s it obvious to? 

[00:51:44] Tom Jones: Other people. Everyone else. Who’s the recipient of it? Amen to that. 

[00:51:48] Mark Divine: Amen to that. And so that’s why I wrote staring down the wolf is like staring on the wolf is all about your leader. Do your work. Yeah. 

[00:51:55] Tom Jones: Do your work.

[00:51:55] Mark Divine: Do your work because you’re the limiting factor. Leaders tend to be the major limiting factor. 

[00:52:01] Tom Jones: Yeah. Cause they bought into their own BS, 

[00:52:03] Mark Divine: right? They’re starting to drink their own Kool Aid, drinking their own Kool Aid. They think they’re the one with the answers and all the power and they don’t have any power without their team.

[00:52:11] Mark Divine: Do you know how 

[00:52:11] Tom Jones: many people I bodyguarded that were absolutely convinced by their divine greatness that the it happened? Oh, I believe it. And I’m just, I’m in the nosebleed seats and I’m like, Hey man, you slipped on a banana peel and fell into a platinum mine. Like, I could see that. Be humble. 

[00:52:29] Mark Divine: Slipped on a banana peel.

[00:52:31] Tom Jones: And fell into a diamond mine. You woke up and you’re like, holy shit, there’s diamonds around everywhere. How did that happen? Oh, I, I put that banana peel there myself because I knew that if I slipped there, I’d land in a diamond mine. I’m like, I’m in sixth grade education. I could see that growing. Why do some people fall into a diamond mine and others into a pile of shit?

[00:52:47] Tom Jones: A hundred percent. Why is that? Is that karma or just random? I think, I think it’s random and I think that you have to make your own banana peel and slip on it. I do. That’s what I’ve been working on really hard. I’m sharpening up my banana peel all the time. A bunch of bananas in the back of your truck.

[00:53:05] Tom Jones: I’m gonna throw it right there. I’m gonna hit that sucker. Do a couple 360s. I’m gonna wake up and go, holy crap. There’s diamonds everywhere. This is great Then i’m going to take the diamonds and do the honorable thing. I’m going to do good for other people Yeah, give them away. I am a reading fanatic and that’s why I can’t wait to dig into You know, that’s brilliant because you can’t take it with you, but you 

[00:53:27] Mark Divine: can die trying Oh, yeah another metaphor.

[00:53:30] Mark Divine: I think this is like kabir’s like we come into this world with closed fists and we leave with open palms So what are you holding on to in between he doesn’t say this part, but the point is like why do you hold on to stuff? Like Let money flow through you, let wealth flow through you, and the more it flows through you, the more you give away, the more you get.

[00:53:51] Mark Divine: And this is, that’s the meaning of abundance, right? So, that’s why I love your mission, right? So the more you give of yourself, the more love you give, the more love you receive. The more forgiveness you give, the more forgiveness you receive. The more of your wealth you give 

[00:54:02] Tom Jones: away, 

[00:54:03] Mark Divine: The wealthier you are. 

[00:54:04] Tom Jones: And Chuck Norris is right.

[00:54:05] Tom Jones: The more people you can figure out to help in your life, the more successful you’ll be. Now, I was really weird about money. That was a shadow thing because I lived in such scarcity for such a long time. So I’ve taken this course, Money EQ by Ken Honda, and sold several million books, blah, blah, blah.

[00:54:22] Tom Jones: Awesome course. The thing that stuck in my mind, which was one of the hardest thing to do was I already got toe in, I already got toe out. I already got toe in. I got that handled. Yeah. The audio got to out part was so hard for me, but the more I’ve let go, then the more it comes in. And you’re absolutely right.

[00:54:40] Tom Jones: I totally agree for me. That was a tough one. 

[00:54:42] Mark Divine: That’s a very profound point. I want to talk about that again. Here’s the way to look at it from the non dual perspective. Nothing is separate from you. So if you are paying, you know, someone $150 for dinner and tipping the waiter, you know, 20%, you’re paying yourself and you got to eat an amazing dinner and you got the amazing 

[00:55:01] Tom Jones: experience of 

[00:55:02] Mark Divine: doing it and experience.

[00:55:03] Mark Divine: Yeah. And so appreciate that. And so that which you appreciate grows, right? That’s what the word means, actually, like, you know, interest appreciates over time, blah, blah, blah. So if you become an appreciation machine. Not just to appreciate that I’m alive or appreciate things that you’re grateful for, but every time you think about money, you think about wealth, every time you, you get to spend money or to deliver value in the form of money, you’ve delivered value to receive this representation of value.

[00:55:36] Mark Divine: And so you appreciate that you have that opportunity to then share that. And that develops this energetic state where money is, you know, it’s attracted to you. Because that which you give comes back to you. Right. And if you appreciate it, then it comes back to you more. 

[00:55:52] Tom Jones: That’s where the boomerang affects a good thing.

[00:55:53] Tom Jones: Yeah. Yeah. And, and it’s true, that’s why the Alexander the Great, when it is, It’s hand held up there or cut off and put up because, you know, you come into it empty handed, you leave empty handed. And if you can come to terms with that, I think that you can do a lot more with it than try to hold it in this iron grip as it goes through your fingers like mud.

[00:56:15] Mark Divine: I know that’s why I think our Western, you know, kind of orientation around the whole estate planning and. The legal, you know, barriers that are set up and all the stories are on money. It’s just destroyed families. It’s destroyed my parents family, 

[00:56:32] Tom Jones: destroyed cultures, destroyed civilizations. I mean, yeah, it’s bad.

[00:56:38] Tom Jones: Yeah, it’s bad because again, they’re trying to hold onto a puff of smoke. It’s not happening. 

[00:56:48] 

[01:03:08] Mark Divine: Are you optimistic about the future or pessimistic, Tom? 

[01:03:10] Tom Jones: I’m optimistic about the future. Always am. Because I’m a student of history. And my wife will tell me, Hey, you know, the world’s on fire. And I’m like, Hey, you know, the world’s on fire been been on fire since day one.

[01:03:22] Tom Jones: Look at history. 

[01:03:23] Mark Divine: By the way, fire is good. It’s needed. Yeah. It was one of the man’s 

[01:03:27] Tom Jones: greatest discovery, if not the greatest discovery. I think that God has a plan and we’re not going to understand the plan. We’re not supposed to understand the plan. I certainly didn’t understand the plan when I was being molested as a child.

[01:03:40] Tom Jones: I didn’t understand the plan when I was being removed from my home and. Now I’m aware that there is a plan to answer the question. I’m very optimistic. I think that human beings innately are survivors. 

[01:03:51] Mark Divine: For sure. 

[01:03:52] Tom Jones: You know, until we’re not. You know, but they say that the human race has gone extinct four separate times.

[01:03:59] Tom Jones: Right, because they’re finding stuff under the ocean that are way longer than what they’re saying them. No, 

[01:04:04] Mark Divine: I agree with 

[01:04:05] Tom Jones: that. I believe that. Yeah. 

[01:04:06] Mark Divine: Yeah. I think civilization comes and goes and yeah, and we just are left with a few little remnants. And so we think, Oh yeah, humanity has been here for only, you know, some people say 6, 000 years.

[01:04:16] Mark Divine: Some people say 30, 000. I’m thinking, how about. Billions. 

[01:04:21] Tom Jones: Yes. You’re absolutely right. And they keep finding stuff. And I think this science experiment has blown up several times, but whether we still come back and be scientists somehow, we’re like, we got it this time. No, probably not. But I’m very optimistic.

[01:04:34] Tom Jones: How about you? I am. Yeah, I am. And again, first 

[01:04:38] Mark Divine: of all, I don’t really believe that there is one world out there. I think the world is within us. And so we are the world. When you open your eyes as a child, your world is born. And actually every night, every day, when you close your eyes at night, you go back to source and you come, when you open your eyes in the morning, your world is born again.

[01:05:00] Mark Divine: So it’s a mistake to think that the world is out there and that that’s the world. And from that perspective, even evolution. So that’s from the non dual perspective. So there’s 8 billion worlds. And then those worlds overlap, and so we call that co created reality, but, you know, some people will experience absolutely no violence, fear, strife, right?

[01:05:23] Mark Divine: Because that’s their world. Right. And then some people are going to experience just absolute abject horror. Right. And that’s their world. Now why, why those two exist, I think, personally, is a karmic thing. Right. The souls are more advanced. And you know, if you’re, if you’re born in Himalayas and you never even have a TV and you’re having this incredibly advanced spiritual experience and it’s your turn to awaken and be enlightened, you’re not going to experience anything.

[01:05:53] Mark Divine: You don’t know who Trump is or could care less, right? Or, or you, you know, a hundred percent nuclear bomb went off in Kiev. You wouldn’t know. And you wouldn’t care. 

[01:06:01] Tom Jones: Wouldn’t change your day any. Right. 

[01:06:03] Mark Divine: The average spectrum on electromagnetic spectrum that the human being can perceive is point zero five percent, right?

[01:06:09] Mark Divine: of the electromagnetic spectrum. Right, because we 

[01:06:11] Tom Jones: only see on a certain spectrum. Right, 

[01:06:13] Mark Divine: and so more advanced beings actually have greater perceptual capacity. And so they, there’s actually these different like phase shifts. And so this is like the idea of the different realms. Like there are people who are living in hell on earth and they’re, they’re living in Right.

[01:06:26] Mark Divine: Frequency. Frequency, dark energy. Right. Right. Right. And then there’s very advanced spiritual beings who are able to live at a much higher level of frequency. Right. Uh, Dr. David Hawkins work, Power Versus Force, where he talks about the scale of consciousness. Mm hmm. Is kind of uh, apropos for, or kind of over, would dovetail with that idea.

[01:06:45] Mark Divine: So I am very optimistic because I believe that Everyone has the potential to live in heaven on earth, in their world. Right, a 

[01:06:57] Tom Jones: hundred 

[01:06:57] Mark Divine: percent. In their world. 

[01:06:58] Tom Jones: Right, because heaven’s not a place. It’s not a place, in spite 

[01:07:01] Mark Divine: of what you might see on TV. Now, flip to duality, I also believe that what is happening in the world is a reflection of the combined consciousness projecting into the world.

[01:07:16] Tom Jones: So you’re saying the dream of the planet. Is is a collective 

[01:07:20] Mark Divine: dream, right? So so because We’re coming out of a pretty dark area not in the hindu tradition called the kali yuga, which is the darkest age, right? And this has to do with the planetary rotation around the galactic center. It’s the furthest away from the galactic center We’re just coming out of that.

[01:07:35] Tom Jones: Yeah, because it matters 

[01:07:36] Mark Divine: it matters. Yeah, and so consciousness is it’s like It’s most dense and dark, right? Energy. So we have a long tail of very negative energy and those negative energies are baked into our institutions, right? Oh yeah. This is why the most craven individuals can lead a country. Right.

[01:07:57] Mark Divine: And we’re all armored up, right? We know that if you defend yourself, you invite attack. That’s a spiritual principle. So everyone’s all defended. Right. Which means we’re all inviting attack. Right. At an individual and a country level. And so it’s super violent because the consciousness of humanity has been violent, but it’s changing, right?

[01:08:15] Mark Divine: More and more people are having these conversations more and more people are waking up more and more people are Evolving along that scale of consciousness. And so this is why I You know not me, but through me. I I heard years ago 100 million. We’re gonna we’re gonna impact 100 million people What does that mean for unbeatable mind?

[01:08:30] Mark Divine: It means to wake people up to be able to shift them into a positive frequency Where they’re optimistic and abundant and they see The future that their heart knows is possible and with technologies like this podcast. We can do that now at scale, 

[01:08:44] Tom Jones: right? 

[01:08:45] Mark Divine: So if you have a hundred million worlds individual worlds suddenly operating an extremely positive optimistic and abundant level yeah and seeing earth as beautiful and healed and communities of people living in harmony 

[01:08:59] Tom Jones: That’s going to change things.

[01:09:01] Tom Jones: Do you think that will change things? And 

[01:09:03] Mark Divine: oh, by the way, those people aren’t fighting against the old negative violence system. They’re ignoring it. Right. And knowing that’s obsolete. And so you see things like blockchain and Bitcoin and decentralization and who knows what part AI will play in this.

[01:09:17] Mark Divine: It’ll have a positive effect, an accelerant effect, and it’ll probably also support the negative energies. Right. But ultimately everything’s in balance, Tom. Right. If it weren’t in balance, the earth would just evaporate and disappear. 

[01:09:26] Tom Jones: Humanity, it would all implode. And start over. Right. And it’s just like movies, right?

[01:09:32] Tom Jones: The hero always wins, right? Good always wins over evil. And 

[01:09:36] Mark Divine: it doesn’t look like they’re winning, right? Because oftentimes it’s, you know, goodness has so much power, more powerful than, it’s more power than evil, right? Right. Again, on the scale of consciousness, let’s say, you know, a Jesus character or, you know, there’s countless individuals.

[01:09:49] Mark Divine: Right. on the planet right now who are operating at an extraordinarily high level. I’m not saying they’re all at Jesus level, but they’re at a very high level. And so, even one individual operating at the level of awakened awareness or that kind of consciousness, you know, it’s the equivalent of like thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of people operating below consciousness.

[01:10:08] Mark Divine: You know, the level of fear, we’re in the level of fear, the negative energy, so people in the negative energy territories, they have to use force, you know, they actually have to use weapons and, and angry words and, you know, they can’t, they can’t operate at the level of conscious, they can’t shift things at the level of consciousness because they don’t have that power.

[01:10:27] Mark Divine: I don’t have the power. 

[01:10:27] Tom Jones: You know, I was training a guy one day, super smart, Harvard graduate, which doesn’t mean he’s super smart, but he was super smart, very successful at business. It was like a Chuck Norris moment. He just looked down at me right out of the clear blue sky. I think we’re stretching out after his training session.

[01:10:42] Tom Jones: He looked at me and he goes, you know, Tom, life is about love. Right? And I was like, okay, that’s weird. But it has come up repeatedly since then. Life is about love. Life is about love and different situations. Coming from Alpha males like that. That’s a truth. 

[01:11:02] Mark Divine: It’s truth Yeah from a spiritual perspective life is love.

[01:11:06] Mark Divine: It’s just we don’t really have a good way to understand what love is, right? Love is life force. It’s prana. It’s you know There’s three terms that the yoga tradition uses to describe it and such ananda sat is is just Pure beingness chit is awareness of beingness. That’s consciousness and ananda is love bliss Life, it’s the outpouring and so these are just three vectors or three different terms to you know another three different words would be presence for sat intelligence for chit and power for ananda And then the corollary is also the the Trinity the father is sat.

[01:11:51] Mark Divine: I’m just pure Everything. Beingness. The sun is Chit, that’s an individual awareness, intelligence of beingness. And Ananda, love, power, is the Holy Spirit flowing through all things, animating all things. But it’s all love. 

[01:12:11] Tom Jones: Yeah. 

[01:12:12] Mark Divine: Those are just different terms. And that’s the most 

[01:12:14] Tom Jones: powerful emotion that we have too.

[01:12:16] Tom Jones: You know, Sanskrit, I’ve 

[01:12:17] Mark Divine: said this many times in this podcast, but Sanskrit language has, I think, 63 or some, some odd number of words for love. 

[01:12:26] Tom Jones: Oh, really? 

[01:12:27] Mark Divine: Yeah. 

[01:12:28] Tom Jones: Wow. That’s important, 

[01:12:30] Mark Divine: isn’t it? In America, we have one. Yay. So this is a good example. Again, back to background of obvious, people don’t really appreciate how much their language limits their perception, right?

[01:12:44] Mark Divine: Because language is nothing but, yeah, language is nothing but a, you know, conceptual mental model, right? To be able to communicate. And so, So if we only have one word for love. Then we’re going to be contracted and very limited in our appreciation, our ability to even perceive what, right. 

[01:13:00] Tom Jones: Cause when I’m interviewed in the, we talk about when I started paddling in Oregon, first shark I saw was 17 foot, roughly from my estimation, great weight shark that was like five feet away from me doing a belly roll.

[01:13:12] Tom Jones: They go, how do you, how did that make you feel? Did you go over and pet his belly? No, I didn’t. Uh, I did not. How did that make me feel? I have. Our language doesn’t have the words to describe the fear. We don’t have the language to describe that. Yeah, that saying, oh, I’m scared just doesn’t do it. Not even close.

[01:13:28] Tom Jones: And then, then we have an interview a hundred miles down and the lady looks at me. She goes, you know, you could paddle about a hundred miles down the coastline. She goes, what’s the thing that stood out the most? And I go, I just blurted this out, just like condition response, right? She goes, what stood out the most to you so far?

[01:13:42] Tom Jones: I go where I fit in on the food chain. She goes, excuse me, I go, I came in and I knew I was the apex predator. I saw my first 17 foot great white shark. It was painfully obvious that I am a parasite on a gnat’s ass. I am fish food. And I have like another 1100 miles to paddle. This is not okay.

[01:14:09] Tom Jones: And everybody said, right, when we saw the shark, they go, what do you want to do? I go, keep going. If I stop now, I’ll never start again.

[01:14:22] Mark Divine: That’s an uncommon 

[01:14:23] Tom Jones: experience. Yeah, and everything was the death sentence. That’s If you get lost at sea, you’re dead. You’re dead. If a shark hits you, you’re dead. 

[01:14:32] Mark Divine: If this happens, you’re dead. What else? 

[01:14:33] Tom Jones: The rocks, right? Because it’s a five, typically a five hour paddle. Like if 

[01:14:38] Mark Divine: you got caught in a wave and get thrown in.

[01:14:40] Tom Jones: Well, so you start out on the paddle, it’s high tide. Halfway through, the tide’s dropping and rocks that didn’t, weren’t presented before are now. there. You’re pretty close to shore. Anywhere from five feet to 15 miles, depending on that. So I’d look at the nautical maps and I’d be like, Oh, this is a super rocky area.

[01:15:00] Tom Jones: And a lot of times when the ocean’s doing the motion, you, you’ll get thrown into it or you’ll come up on it and you won’t have enough time to, especially on a paddleboard, you know, you won’t have time to change course or whatever. So that’s what dictated how far off the shore I would paddle to begin with.

[01:15:16] Tom Jones: So. A lot of times in Northern California I paddled pretty far offshore a lot of times and that was mostly because of the rocks. But then the fog comes in, you know, and you can be out there with your horn honking all day long and still be lost at sea. So that was, you know, a very scary thing. All the fish, very scary thing.

[01:15:38] Tom Jones: Is there 

[01:15:38] Mark Divine: anything 

[01:15:38] Tom Jones: else that wanted to eat you or the tiger sharks 

[01:15:40] Mark Divine: you said? Well, that 

[01:15:41] Tom Jones: was in hawaii the tiger sharks in hawaii when I did the endurance island. I paddleboarded around hawaii I ran around oahu and then I cycled it back to back and the tiger sharks are like They see you they come 

[01:15:55] Outro: You 

[01:15:56] Tom Jones: know, which is actually a blessing because you can see them.

[01:15:59] Tom Jones: It’s the one you don’t see is the one that gets you Right, you know, right and i’ve always had close support with wave runners. So You Jump on them and just go away. 

[01:16:10] Mark Divine: So when you did the coast from Seattle down to California coast and then up the east, you had a wave runner with you all the time? Two. Two of them?

[01:16:17] Mark Divine: Yeah, nautical 

[01:16:18] Tom Jones: redundancy. One is one. One breaks down, we need a tow truck, yeah. Yeah, makes sense. And a good team. The other thing that I did was intuition. Another one of the mountains, right? I said to myself i’m gonna have one wave runner driver that goes the whole way and i’m gonna split the state into thirds And have an indigenous person go in those thirds because they know the shoreline.

[01:16:41] Tom Jones: They know what to look out for. They know that we shouldn’t be that close or whatever. 

[01:16:46] Mark Divine: And 

[01:16:46] Tom Jones: in like Humboldt County, they know that we shouldn’t hit the shore there because that’s where the people grow weed and they’ll shoot you. I was like, yeah, you wouldn’t think of that. That’s interesting. Okay. We won’t land there.

[01:17:00] Tom Jones: So they won’t understand it for sure. What’s your next big adventure? I’m always only limited by finances. Provided I can get the money together. I’m gonna paddle the Gulf of Mexico, but I’m gonna do it on hydrofoil board. 

[01:17:11] Mark Divine: Oh, interesting. 

[01:17:12] Tom Jones: So on hydrofoil board, I should be able to get between 50 and 150 miles a day with the wind behind me.

[01:17:18] Tom Jones: So it’s 

[01:17:19] Mark Divine: a, it’s still a standup, it’s a 

[01:17:20] Tom Jones: paddle board. It’s still a standup board. But you’re coming up on the hydrofoil. How do, how do you get it going fast enough to get the hydroplane? So there’s two ways. They have a foil assist, which is a small little motor that gets you going fast enough to where you get.

[01:17:31] Tom Jones: Other ways, you just paddle, you start paddling, and then you start bouncing the board, and then you get enough momentum to get on the foil, and then it takes off. Or you can catch a wave, I imagine. Well, you gotta get up on the foil to catch a wave, or you can catch the momentum of the wave and then come up on foil.

[01:17:47] Tom Jones: Got it. So there’s a few different ways. But the thing is Once you’re up on foil, 

[01:17:50] Mark Divine: how do you stay up? 

[01:17:52] Tom Jones: You just gotta keep it moving? You gotta keep it moving. You ride the swell. I see. Just like a wave, you just ride the swell. And the foil just creates its own inertia, pretty much. I mean, Laird Hamilton told me, probably like ten ish years ago, he said, you haven’t surfed until you foil.

[01:18:11] Tom Jones: Like, that’s the ultimate in surfing. And I just remember him saying that. But then, when I started foiling, I was like, he is right. Like, this is next level. Really? Yeah. You gotta do it. How is it different? I mean, I’m not a surfer. It’s like magic carpet, right? Yeah. It’s like the, you know, the part in the airplane where you take off and you become weightless.

[01:18:31] Tom Jones: Yeah. It’s that feeling. Oh, cool. 

[01:18:34] Mark Divine: There’s a guy who has a electric foil surfboard out in front where I live and it’s just so much fun to 

[01:18:39] Tom Jones: watch him. Have you tried it? No. Oh, you think I could do it? A hundred percent. It’s going to take a minute though. It took me a minute. I did it in Huntington Harbor and I ended up having like a small fan club after a while because they saw me splat so many times and they said they are out on their boats drinking, right?

[01:18:55] Tom Jones: We’ll go and look at this freaking idiot. He’s like, well, let’s splat. Um, bam, bam. I’ll say one thing though. Um, he will, he doesn’t quit. And then I remember when I got the hang of it and I cruised out of the sort of finger that I was in on the harbor, and I cruise out and I go into the main channel, they were all hammered and clapping.

[01:19:15] Tom Jones: They’re like, yeah, you did it. Yes. That’s funny. Do you have to be a good surfer in 

[01:19:21] Mark Divine: order to do the foil? 

[01:19:22] Tom Jones: No. No, you don’t. I, you know, I am an inventor. I have like five patents or so and invented a bunch of stuff. So in the hydrofoil, they invented. So there’s the board, and then they have invented this, like, There are tubes that go around the board that give it more buoyancy, 

[01:19:39] Mark Divine: and 

[01:19:39] Tom Jones: make it easier to learn how to do.

[01:19:42] Tom Jones: You can learn how to do it without surfing background. If you think you can get me up on that thing. I can get you up on it, for sure. 

[01:19:50] Mark Divine: Alright, I challenge 

[01:19:51] Tom Jones: you to do that then. Oh, easy day. Okay. Let’s do it. Easy day. Okay. I’ll see if I can, I, I had an electric foil. I don’t have one in any longer, but I know someone that’s got like five of them layered.

[01:20:08] Tom Jones: I walked through his garage the other day when I was like, that’s a cool hydrofoil quiver. And he’s like, Oh, those are my electric ones. And I was like, okay, note to self. You can only surf on one at a time. That’s funny. 

[01:20:21] Mark Divine: Laird helped you learn how to paddleboard or, you know. 

[01:20:24] Tom Jones: Well, I went to Laird to learn stand up paddling.

[01:20:26] Tom Jones: Because when I was going to paddle California prone, I was going to do it prone. But it’s really hard on your neck and you can’t see and stuff. So, I was with the Mickey Munoz, famous surfer guy, and I’m looking through this magazine and I go, Uh, Who’s this guy? It was like one of the very first pictures of a layered on a standup paddleboard in a magazine.

[01:20:45] Tom Jones: Mickey Munoz looks over and he kind of laughs. He goes, that’s the best waterman in the world. And I go, I want to meet him. And so anyway, make a very long story short. I ended up meeting him in Hawaii and the way we hit it off was over expresso. I meet him. We kind of did a little small talk with myself, him and Dave Kalama.

[01:21:05] Tom Jones: And I go. Is there an espresso on this island? He goes, yeah, in my garage. I go, really? So we go to his garage and he has like the most badass espresso machine that you could have. 

[01:21:16] Mark Divine: Yeah. And he used to experiment with all his little, what now became layered superfoods. Right. 

[01:21:20] Tom Jones: We drink a bunch of expresso before we go paddle.

[01:21:24] Tom Jones: And I look at him and I go, I don’t know about you. I go, but I feel like I stole something. So jacked up on the express. That’s funny. Probably helped you serve. Well, I have insane story with him. So I paddled and then I wanted to learn how to paddleboard surf. So I went back out. And to Maui and he takes me to Ho Kipa, which is a place that breaks pretty big.

[01:21:50] Tom Jones: And the news was there, he says to me, you’re going to do this, this, this, this, this, this, this. You’re going to paddle and get out to the outside. I go, okay. Listen to him intently. He goes, I’m going to go over to here. It’s a harder spot and I’m going to meet you out there, right? So anyway, I did exactly as he tells me.

[01:22:04] Tom Jones: I get out there, he comes up and he goes, no way. I go, no way, what? He goes, no way. No way you made it out. I go, what do you mean? No way. I made it out. He goes, Hey, there’s a set coming in. We got to go. We got to hit the outside, right? Very little surfing experience. A lot of paddleboard experience because I paddled the whole state by then.

[01:22:24] Tom Jones: So we’re palling up the face of, I’m not kidding, a 20 foot wave. And we’re side by side. He looks at me when we’re about ready to cross the wave. He looks at me, he goes, Hey, Tom Jones. I go, I go, what? You know, he’s like, You’d like to take this one. I go, I want to live. I screamed that out and I’m hucking towards the top of the wave.

[01:22:44] Tom Jones: And he just kicked his board right past mine. Surf’s the thing down. Yeah. Oh, that’s awesome. But he taught me to ride big waves. I’ve ridden some big waves with them. And then, then he always tells you these things at the last minute. He goes, well, Tom Jones, we won’t know if you’re a big wave surfer until you actually.

[01:23:00] Tom Jones: Get up on top of the wave. And I go, what does that mean? I’ve seen people, I swear, we’re going to be a big wave surfer. They get up on top. They won’t let go of the rope. They’ll back out. You know what I mean? And he goes, I’ve been wrong a bunch of times. He said, big wave surfers are born. They’re not made.

[01:23:16] Tom Jones: As we’re going out. Right. And I’m like, why do you always wait until these times to tell me these things? Right. Right. So anyway, we get up, I’m on the top of a pretty big wave, probably 20, maybe 25 and I surf it. He comes paddling up. He has a biggest freaking grin on his face. He goes, Tom Jones. I go, what?

[01:23:33] Tom Jones: He goes, you’re a big wave surfer. I go, yes. That’s pretty awesome. That was fun. He’s a fun guy, but he’s scary. Yeah, he’s very competent and confident and he’s earned his way He has all the way up because the first time I met him I go. Is that a hole in your cheek? He goes, yeah, I can stick my tongue through it and I go that’s pretty impressive I was like, so how did that happen?

[01:24:00] Tom Jones: He goes when I board I was on surfing jobs and my board speared me in the face. And he goes, it’s amazing. It hit me back here and miss my teeth. Didn’t knock any of my teeth out, but put a hole in my face. And I was like, okay, we’re going to get along good. He goes, look, I can blow air through it. That’s good stuff.

[01:24:27] Tom Jones: But I, I’m really excited about your book. I think the five mountains. Are just so important. They were important to me. And you know, the first thing that we do That I do in my program is we get people’s north star or their compass and catalyst And you know your program really got me on to mine and I thought it was going to be so easy You know passion purpose and principles, right?

[01:24:52] Tom Jones: And I was like easy day. I got this i’ll get it I had not lying. I had a stack of crumbled up papers like this tall and I still couldn’t get it Cause what we try to do is get people to get their mission statement for their life or their North star. And they’re always asking like, what’s yours? Mine was evolved from yours.

[01:25:12] Tom Jones: Is it become the best integrated 

[01:25:13] Tom Jones: version I can become in my lifetime in service to others? 

[01:25:17] Mark Divine: Yeah. 

[01:25:17] Tom Jones: That’s my North star. That’s good. Yeah. And I find that once people get their North star changes them completely. Yeah. Most people walk around thinking they know their life’s mission statement. Yeah. baloney.

[01:25:29] Tom Jones: That’s not true whatsoever. I found out they’re not even close, right? They start mumbling and fumbling and bumbling and, but once we work with them and that’s the biggest, most labor intensive, heavy lifting part of my particular program, it really gives them a direction. And then everything that we do supports that direction, right?

[01:25:51] Tom Jones: Sledgehammer down the walls, right? Have courage. Mm hmm. Follow through. Mm hmm. Find the opportunity in the adversity. Right. And at the end of the day, don’t give up, give in, tap out, and quit. 

[01:26:01] Mark Divine: Right. Yeah, I agree with that. And finding your, um, we call it the three Ps. Most people err because they’re looking at it as something they’re supposed to be doing.

[01:26:12] Mark Divine: And so we always say it’s not about that, it’s about who you’re becoming. So it’s about being. I love that. And so we call it an archetypal energy, right? So for me it was warrior, and then warrior leader, and then, you know, teacher. Address. So, but if I had, you know, when I uncovered my, my first version of that.

[01:26:31] Mark Divine: When I was in 20s because I was, you know, through my Zen practice. This is another part like that It’s already in you. So your purpose needs to come out of you. It needs to be evoked. It’s not something you Discover by thinking about it necessarily. Do you have 

[01:26:46] Tom Jones: to discover that you have one first though, right?

[01:26:49] Mark Divine: Well, 

[01:26:50] Tom Jones: do you think everyone has one even if do you think people are a lot of people are unaware though that they 

[01:26:54] Mark Divine: have one Well, I think a lot of people doubt they have one also, okay And doubt is by, by the way, probably the biggest obstacle to growth. From your lips to God’s ears, yeah. Not everyone, but some people doubt that they have one or they don’t believe that they have one.

[01:27:10] Mark Divine: I do believe that we all have a unique reason for being here, both to grow and to serve. So this is why my, my purpose is self mastery in service, right? Using my unique gifts as a teacher. So that of that came on be a mind and, you know. Uncommon. We can also use the, again, back to the, the Indian tradition, the Hindu tradition of yoga.

[01:27:32] Mark Divine: They talk about dharma and karma and dharma and karma are the, are the same thing as purpose and growth, right? So karma is like what the energy you come into that’s going to express in a certain way so that you can have certain challenges that are unique to you so that you can overcome those challenges and evolve.

[01:27:49] Mark Divine: So that’s 

[01:27:50] Tom Jones: your opportunity to grow. That’s 

[01:27:51] Mark Divine: your up to karma, your opportunity to grow. So in every lifetime you either. Accrue more negative karma or you burn off negative karma and accrue positive karma and that’ll affect kind of the next go around The other side of karma though is dharma and dharma is essentially your calling what you’re supposed to be doing in life And if you don’t align with that if you don’t discover that and align with that then you’re going to accrue more negative karma That was what the whole expression was or the idea in the bhagavad gita, right?

[01:28:20] Mark Divine: So bhagavi you have arjuna as a warrior arjuna his karma was to be a warrior Or his dharma was to be a warrior. And, uh, he didn’t want to fight his brothers and uncles. And that was a big battlefield because they had usurped the power from his father. And Krishna, who was a representative of God, acting as his charioteer, was saying, you know what, Arjuna, you have to fight.

[01:28:42] Mark Divine: It’s your dharma. And if you don’t go fight them, then you’re going to bring suffering upon yourself in this lifetime and in the next. What he was saying is you’re going to accrue negative karma. So karma and dharma. Are very closely aligned and so this is why it’s so important I believe to really uncover Your purpose because that’s going to be you know point to your calling and your calling will be your mission how you’re supposed to fulfill your calling Which is the archetypal energy of why you’re you were incarnate and what you’re supposed to do and how you’re supposed to serve 

[01:29:10] Tom Jones: so let me ask you a question just because I’m not gonna I don’t get enough access to you.

[01:29:15] Tom Jones: So i’m gonna go for it now because I got you hostage Do you feel that? When you reach enlightenment, that those two like maybe become one or they’re separate and you don’t get recycled? Mm hmm. Is that what you’re saying? 

[01:29:31] Mark Divine: The impulse to incarnate in human form will be gone. It doesn’t mean it wouldn’t happen for a special mission to maintain balance.

[01:29:41] Mark Divine: But the need, the desire, the cravings, all the desires, all karma, once it’s burned off, it’s burned off in enlightenment. And then the need to reincarnate is, is over as a human. Again, it doesn’t mean you’re at the end of your evolutionary journey as a soul. 

[01:29:59] Tom Jones: It might seem weird and it’s not arrogant, but I feel like, I feel like I’m not going to reincarnate.

[01:30:05] Tom Jones: And I just, I just have that weird feeling that I’m moving on to the next. 

[01:30:10] Mark Divine: Next mission, 

[01:30:11] Tom Jones: whatever that is, I don’t know, but I feel like I’m not going to be recycled because I’m so proactive on trying to figure it out. I’m not at your level, but I’m aspiring to be, you know, and I’m on it, but I’ve, I’ve had this feeling for the past few years that I’m not going to, I’m not going to reincarnate, not going to get recycled.

[01:30:30] Tom Jones: Probably 

[01:30:31] Mark Divine: accurate. I mean, your spirit knows you’re very open and you spend a lot of time in silence and so you’re, you’re able to hear. And understand things that are blocked from most people. 

[01:30:40] Tom Jones: Well, even when I’m running, I felt a couple times that I felt the light come out. They’d hop my head and I’m like, okay, that’s weird.

[01:30:48] Tom Jones: Like we are light. We are streaming. I’m like, did I just 

[01:30:52] Mark Divine: do something there? You know, the experience of enlightenment at its most complete level, like everything is just pure energy. Okay. There’s no separation between any kind of anything. Everything is energy. In fact, again, to invoke the Bhagavad Gita, Krishna gives Arjuna a vision of that.

[01:31:11] Tom Jones: Okay. 

[01:31:12] Mark Divine: And that’s the, you know, the idea, the biblical story of burned up. Everything is just burned up. Mm hmm. What they’re really saying is everything is energy. It’s just outpouring energy, and then it’s just, you know, edits as it flows. Energy, you know, kind of slows down and forms as a human being here and there’s a plant there and there’s a tree there and a light there.

[01:31:31] Mark Divine: But ultimately it’s all just energy. 

[01:31:32] Tom Jones: It’s interesting because I just interviewed a guy on my podcast that was an end of life minister And he had the most Unique outlook and perspective on life. And one thing that he said, he said a bunch of things were pretty profound, but one thing he said that was super profound is he said, I have had the privilege of having a look behind the curtain.

[01:31:55] Tom Jones: And I said, so there is behind a curtain. He goes, a hundred percent. Absolutely. There’s something behind the curtain. There’s, Energy transforms, you transform, there’s something behind the curtain that you don’t just die. And that’s the end of it. Right. And I thought his story was really interesting in several aspects, but mostly because I was like, boy, don’t you really find out what’s important when you sit with people in the last days or hours of their lives?

[01:32:22] Tom Jones: It’s not their car or how fancy their watch is or how big of a house they have. You know what I mean? It’s what I wish I would have said, what I didn’t say and on and on. So that’s 

[01:32:32] Mark Divine: why it’s so spiritual development and I don’t really get into this in uncommon as beyond the scope, but it’s so important because, and you’ll be led there by the way through the breathing meditation practice to this feeling of emptiness.

[01:32:45] Mark Divine: And what that means is that you get to this, this place where. Your experience of life is empty of the sense, individual sense of self. 

[01:32:53] Tom Jones: I get it. 

[01:32:54] Mark Divine: Right? So, so Mark is an idea. It’s a series. It’s just a bunch of concepts. Mm hmm. Right? That we’re conditioned and trained. Like I didn’t come in this world with the name Mark.

[01:33:02] Mark Divine: Right. It was something my parents decided to. Sure. To throw on me and paint me with. So, I’m not Mark. Right. Right. And I didn’t come in this world with these ideas that, you know, a mark to mine was a Navy SEAL and MBA, CPA, PhD, and, you know, creative unbeatable mind seal, but those are all just like concepts, mental models, structures.

[01:33:22] Mark Divine: So it was all virtual, it’s all virtual. It was just something made up, 

[01:33:27] Tom Jones: right? 

[01:33:28] Mark Divine: And so when I ask, who am I, I don’t. Um, feel any sense of I am unveiled mind or I am a PhD or I am a Navy SEAL or I am even this body, the sense of I am transcends that all of that. And the more you meditate on that and reflect on that and really own that, you also understand that that sense of I am preexisted the body.

[01:33:58] Mark Divine: And will exist after the body and that’s like the zen koan is right What was your original face before you were born right trying to get you to experience that? the true identity of I Is not this body and it’s not even this this body in this lifetime it goes beyond beyond yeah And it’s not separate Right, it’s not separate than other eyes Mm hmm.

[01:34:24] Mark Divine: Which are not separate from spirit. Mm hmm. Just like rays of the sun are not separate from the sun. Right. But they’re distinct. 

[01:34:32] Tom Jones: Right. Yeah. 

[01:34:34] Mark Divine: We’re just like all flowers aren’t separate from each other and they’re each equally beautiful. Right? 

[01:34:40] Tom Jones: Yeah. A hundred percent. There’s just a bouquet. It’s a bouquet.

[01:34:43] Tom Jones: Right? So 

[01:34:43] Mark Divine: human beings are that. We’re all, we’re like rays of the sun. 

[01:34:46] Tom Jones: Right. 

[01:34:47] Mark Divine: Each one is unique and beautiful, but not separate. Right. 

[01:34:50] Tom Jones: Right. 

[01:34:51] Mark Divine: From the sun 

[01:34:52] Tom Jones: and the sooner we get our arms around that folks the better. 

[01:34:55] Mark Divine: That’s what leads to heaven on earth Yeah, that’s what leads to healing right? so that’s my vision is when we get to a place where we see all beings as beautiful all beings as us But also as unique and we celebrate that uniqueness and diversity instead of fight it, right Right?

[01:35:14] Mark Divine: Separation is the cause of suffering. 

[01:35:16] Tom Jones: But you just described how we come together. You just like straight laid it out. That’s how we come together as a bouquet. As 

[01:35:25] Mark Divine: one human and one like, not separate, but unique, collaborative, cooperative, you know, unity conscious doesn’t mean you become an amorphous blob.

[01:35:38] Tom Jones: Right. 

[01:35:39] Mark Divine: Right. You still, in fact, the experience of life is. Just so much more. Yeah, you evolve. So much more. Yeah, because you get to experience that, you know, it’s like In duality in separation, let’s say the range of experiences from zero to ten well suddenly from the perspective of enlightened awakening the range of experiences Minus 1, 000 to 1, 000 where that zero to ten is still there still nested in it You still get to experience that, but you just quantum mapped it, but, but it barely registers now on, you know, on the amplitude scale.

[01:36:15] Mark Divine: So nothing bothers you. 

[01:36:17] Tom Jones: Yeah. I get it. I totally, and I hope other people get it too, because it’s good stuff. Everything’s been good stuff. My question is what the hell is next for Mark Divine? That’s a good question. I 

[01:36:31] Mark Divine: can’t wait to find out. What do you think it’s happening through me? It’s not something i’m okay.

[01:36:37] Mark Divine: I’m practicing Catherine I have a lot of talk about this. I’m practicing wei wu wei So wei wu wei is action without action. Sure action non action But another better way to look at is action without the actor the actor being the ego or the mark, right and so If mark is just a bunch of conditioning and I see mark as a bunch of conditioning And I know i’m not those thoughts in that condition behavior.

[01:37:00] Mark Divine: Then who’s doing the acting? You It’s happening through, it’s happening through this body mind as an instrument. Like, another great example of metaphor is like, a human being is like a flute, right? The flute doesn’t play its own music. It’s the breath. And you could say, you know, the musician, you know, could be like, metaphorically, God.

[01:37:24] Mark Divine: It’s the breath that’s playing the music in the instrument. I’m excited to see what blows my way. 

[01:37:32] Tom Jones: Oh, interesting. So you’re just going to surrender and let what comes, come. Yes. 

[01:37:36] Mark Divine: That experience of the way we weigh is One of simplicity, I’m working on decluttering and disengaging from my businesses in terms of operational.

[01:37:45] Mark Divine: Like I want experts who, you know, are believing in themselves as a great leader. You got a decentralized command going on there. Yeah, you got to get it. I want other people to, who are highly evolved to come in so I can be open and receptive. So you can let the universe decide what’s next for 

[01:38:01] Tom Jones: you. 

[01:38:01] Mark Divine: Yeah.

[01:38:02] Mark Divine: And the other thing is, with Wei Wei Wei, it doesn’t mean you don’t care. Do anything but things happen, but it’s the right things that happen. And so when you sit It works like this. Like the most important thing is stillness, right? So every day you need to have time for stillness and in that stillness, you know at some point in the stillness toward the end You can always you just scan you can scan all the opportunities that are coming at you You can ask yourself which of these energetically feels right Like it’s my, it feels like it’s my, my ego’s involved, right?

[01:38:34] Mark Divine: Like I, I want, there’s, there’s some sort of hook or grab or, or like desire or want in there. Generally speaking, those are things to say no to. Because the ego’s involved? Because the ego’s involved. Okay. Or the ego constructed it. 

[01:38:49] Tom Jones: I got it. Okay. But then 

[01:38:50] Mark Divine: there’s some things that just, I use the term in a double negative, they can’t not, not happen.

[01:38:57] Tom Jones: Okay, these were things that are meant to be the 

[01:38:59] Mark Divine: things that are meant to be literally they just light up like a christmas tree And they’re just like super hell yeses And so you do those And so the more of those other things that you end up doing The less energy or awareness you’re going to have about that or you’ll block it out You’ll be so busy doing these other things that that it’ll take that huge thing that’s supposed to happen You won’t recognize it, 

[01:39:23] Tom Jones: right?

[01:39:23] Tom Jones: It’ll just sail right on by and you’ll sail on by 

[01:39:26] Mark Divine: exactly So this is why people say, how do you have the time to, to do all this training? And I say, well, this is the most important thing. Silence is the most important thing. Stillness is the most important thing. Don’t waste time not doing it because it’s in that stillness that that hell yes is revealed to you.

[01:39:40] Mark Divine: And it saves you all this time by getting, not getting entangled in all this other shit that you didn’t need to be involved. 

[01:39:46] Tom Jones: Not to go down another rabbit hole. Why do you think our culture Like, completely is counterintuitive to that. 

[01:39:53] Mark Divine: Honestly, I think that our culture is set up to keep people trapped.

[01:39:58] Mark Divine: That’s a good answer. To keep people indebted. It’s just a modern form of slavery. It’s a good answer. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. See people distracted to keep people from their true selves because if everyone was oh, yeah, you don’t want people You wouldn’t need governments. 

[01:40:12] Tom Jones: We’re not gonna have a bunch of slaves if we let them do that.

[01:40:15] Tom Jones: Okay, that’s out. That’s out. Yeah kill him

[01:40:23] Mark Divine: And you see like historically some when people get Who know this truth and get too popular. Oh yeah. Gandhi. I even say John Lennon, right? Put him in the category. Suddenly they’re off. We 

[01:40:35] Tom Jones: can’t have that. I promise you that. And that’s, well, I’m not even going to get into it, but that’s probably what they tried to do to Trump, you know what I mean?

[01:40:43] Tom Jones: They’re like, he’s bucking the system too much, you know, let’s let him get shot or whatever happened, you know, I don’t know, but again, it’s the people that don’t fit into that. Mold are the ones that and that’s 

[01:40:56] Mark Divine: that we talked earlier about that’s this those systems will become they’ll just gonna eat themselves alive yeah, and The more and more energy gets sucked out of them by people having these conversations and looking elsewhere, right?

[01:41:08] Mark Divine: They’ll just ultimately kind of wither away or implode. We better watch our six. Yeah, that’s true. And watch your six. Hey everyone, this is Mark Divine, founder of SealFit and Unbeatable Mind, and I’m super stoked to announce that my new book, Uncommon, is due out from St. Martin’s Press this summer, July 16th.

[01:41:28] Mark Divine: And we’ve launched a pre order campaign. You can learn more about that at readuncommon. com to try to get early awareness for the book. Which I hope will help a lot of people where I go and do a deep dive on the five mountains of personal mastery physical mental emotional Intuitional and spiritual uncommon simple principles for an extraordinary life.

[01:41:49] Mark Divine: Check it out at read uncommon comm and Thank you for your support and being part of the change you want to see in this world. Oh, yeah divine out Tom This has been an awesome conversation becoming quip proof. That’s your book. I’m excited. Yeah, I love it Really I read it last night Quick read. I, a lot of familiar stories, some great pictures.

[01:42:11] Mark Divine: Thanks. Great job with this. You had some help from, uh, Cannon Wing. 

[01:42:15] Tom Jones: Yeah. I met her through a guy named Darren O’Lean, just won an Emmy and all that. So I’ve sitting at Laird’s house. He’s like, you have more in your backyard than most people that come up to my house. And there’s some pretty successful people that come up to his house and work out.

[01:42:28] Tom Jones: Right. And he goes, you need to get your own thing. And I was like, okay. So the guy that was Darren was with me. He goes, I know this lady, she’s a namer. And I go, What’s that? So professional namer. So anyway, this lady ended up naming my truck, Honda Ridgeline, like snuggle MTV to on and on, right? All kinds of crap.

[01:42:46] Tom Jones: I was like, Holy crap. There’s a whole thing here. So I wanted to write a book, but I didn’t want to write a book without a purpose. Right. Don’t want a memoir. Right. I want something that makes a difference. Right. And so I tried writing he, because Darren told me, he goes, just start writing. That was Failure.

[01:43:06] Tom Jones: You got to have a plan. I was like, now no plan survives experience here. So I called Ken and I was like, Hey, do you know anything about writing? She goes, yeah, I’ve read a couple of books. And then, so I said, well, Hey, would you like to write this one? So we figured it out and she did a fantastic job. She did.

[01:43:22] Tom Jones: So what I did was I puked my life story out and this guy untangled it, put it in narrative. And then she, Took that and weaved all the post traumatic growth and the statistics and all of that into it So she did a great job. She’s now the executive vice president for our company. I was like after the book I was like We have to figure out how to make you a hostage.

[01:43:46] Tom Jones: Give her a title. How are we going to do that? Yeah. So anyway, Cannon’s done an amazing job. She, she, I offered her equity in the company because I wanted her to have skin in the game and she’s done a fantastic job there. So yeah, Cannon Wing did a great job on that. I can’t wait to dig into your book because I’ve, I’ve done the course, but I really want to go deeper into the five mountains.

[01:44:07] Tom Jones: Yeah. I’m really excited. Like you, I’d stay here all day, but we can’t wrap this up. A lot of 

[01:44:13] Mark Divine: fun. People can find you, uh, social media. Is it Tom Jones? 

[01:44:17] Tom Jones: It’s quit proof. And then the number one is Tom Jones. Quit proof on like Facebook. If you just Google Tom Jones athlete, you’ll have more stuff than you can possibly figure out the, the internet does a fantastic job of bragging about me.

[01:44:33] Tom Jones: Yeah. I’m pretty easy 

[01:44:34] Mark Divine: to find on the internet too. So I’ve got a lot of stuff there. Oh yeah. Yeah. And I’m on social media, at Real Mark Divine, and on Instagram and Facebook. I guess those are the same thing. Where ever I’m at, Mark Divine. I don’t use Twitter as much though. You’re at Mark Divine? No, yeah, just at Mark Divine.

[01:44:50] Mark Divine: Okay. I’ve got to start figuring out how to use Twitter slash X more. Oh, okay. I’m not spending a lot of time personally on social media. I’m not. We post a lot of stuff, but. Yeah, 

[01:44:59] Tom Jones: I’m the same way. Yeah. I’m leery. Of that. Yeah. Okay. All right. It’s time to go fight. Win. Let’s do it, Tom. Thanks so much for your time, brother.

[01:45:10] Tom Jones: Right back at you, Mark. I sincerely appreciate it. I’m very glad that our original podcasts are meeting together. A couple of years ago, I was really turned into a great friendship and I feel blessed because of that. And I’m grateful. I’m grateful again for what you bring to the human beings. And I just want the human beings to be smart enough to dig into it.

[01:45:31] Tom Jones: Like I had, I dug into, I mean, like if you felt like you were being watched, but you were, it was you, it was me. Okay. All right. Yeah. Yeah. All right.