This is Mark Divine, the host of the Mark Divine Show. Welcome to my show today. On this show, I explore what it means to be fearless through the lens of the world’s most inspirational, compassionate, and resilient leaders. Talk to folks from all walks of life, martial arts grandmasters, blockchain security wizards, survivors of extreme challenges, and even people on the forefront of psychedelic healing like my guest today, Matthew Weintrub. Who’s passionate about healing Mother Earth and human family. Matthews, a healer. He’s a psychedelic medicine activist and author of The Psychedelic Origin of Religion. Matthew is a driving force in the modern psychedelic movement and as helped many people find healing and transformation and continues to inspire others join him on his mission to create a better world for all. Matthew, super stoked to have you here on the Mark Divine show.

Mark Divine  0:51  

Matt, welcome to the Mark Divine Show. Thanks for joining me today, buddy. 

Matthew Weintraub 0:54

Thanks for having me, Mark. I really appreciate it.

 

Mark Divine 0:57

As I mentioned before we started, I’d love to always start with just getting a sense for where you’re from and what were like some of the formative things that shaped who you are in your life. Like, growing up, what were your parents, like? What were your major crises or challenges that like were pivots that led you down kind of the path that you’re on today? 

 

Matthew Weintraub 1:04

Yeah, it’s a beautiful question. So my dad is Jewish. And my mom was Christian. She converted 

 

Mark Divine 1:23

Converted to Judaism?

 

Matthew Weintraub 1:25

Yeah. 

 

Mark Divine 1:25

Okay, got it. 

 

Matthew Weintraub 1:26

She converted Judaism. They came down to Texas, my dad’s, you know, from Missouri, my mom’s from Oklahoma. And patches of grass down here were pretty cheap. Back in the day, he did have a really beautiful life. And so we grew up in an amazing community, actually very culturally diverse, where we rode our bikes around the neighborhood. We probably was one of the last generations where we all played outside together. 

 

Mark Divine 1:51

I know.

 

Matthew Weintraub

We knew everybody. It was an idyllic childhood. really grateful for that. 

 

Mark Divine 1:56

You’re 31, you said, so that makes sense. So let’s see how old were you when the iPhone came out in 2007? 

 

Matthew Weintraub 2:04

About 15 years ago?

 

Mark Divine 2:05

Yeah.

 

Matthew Weintraub 2:06

Yeah, I was 15. 

 

Mark Divine 2:07

Okay, so you, your brain was mostly developed, and you didn’t get sucked into it right away, and that Facebook and social media. It really was different. You probably were the last generation to experience that kind of the mental freedom of freedom from that addictive power of social media and digital technologies that our kids grown up with now. 

 

Matthew Weintraub 2:27

Yeah, totally. And my parents weren’t first on the boat to give us cell phones.

 

Mark Divine 2:32

Right.

 

Matthew Weintraub 2:32

Even pre iPhone. So I had to wait, which in hindsight, is just another blessing of adapt. 

 

Mark Divine 2:39

So Texas, small Texas town, what were some of the, like, major forces, obviously, religion played a part in your life, I imagine. And your athletic sports or what was growing up in high school, that kind of stuff like?

 

Matthew Weintraub 2:52

Yeah, so I was always into spirituality. But I think religious school was very dry. 

 

Mark Divine 2:58

Yeah. Did you go to a religious school?

 

Matthew Weintraub 3:00

I went to Sunday school. Most people in our community are Christian. They did too. But aside from like, saying prayers at like a Friday night service, I wasn’t really that involved, because I didn’t really understand any of the benefits like…

 

Mark Divine 3:14

So you were raised a Christian, but you were both your parents were Jewish. 

 

Matthew Weintraub 3:18

No, I was raised Jewish. We have Sunday school. I just mean in my community, like

 

Mark Divine 3:22

Your community. 

 

Matthew Weintraub 3:23

I had like two or three friends that were Jewish my entire life. But everybody went to a Sunday school in their version. I played some sports. I wasn’t the best athlete. But I tried my best I played football. By the time I got to high school I had ended up moving a lot from my dad’s job. And I was kind of depressed as a teenager. 

 

Mark Divine 3:41

And what do you think that was caused by? Was it genetic? Physiological? Was it situational? 

 

Matthew Weintraub 3:46

I think it had to do with one, not understanding my place in the world. I wasn’t tough enough to be a kid in high school let alone moving, losing your friends, trying to make new ones make sense of that. But I just had a very negative worldview. I was in school and they turn on the TV in middle school, or wherever we are. Maybe it was fifth grade, when 911 happened. So we kind of grew up with that awareness of like the world just being at a constant state of war. 

And then I had had my own childhood traumas that I didn’t really resolve until later in life, that were probably affecting me too. And so I actually quit playing football at first as smoke pot.

 

Mark Divine 4:26

To self-medicate. And that’s, that’s a go to for a lot of people right away. 

 

Matthew Weintraub 4:31

Well, it started self medication because I had migraines in high school, and I would actually, I once got hospitalized because it was so bad. And they didn’t really know how to treat it. And my friend said, Hey, try this and we did. And it was amazing. I actually made my migraine go away. But that wasn’t the reason I kind of became a pothead. I kind of became a pothead. Aside from its fun. All these other things self-medicating. I was trying to fill a hole. I’ve more abused marijuana than used marijuana.

 

Mark Divine  4:59  

I totally get that, I think alcohol was my thing to fill that hole. 

 

Mark Divine 5:03

Did you have a point where it kind of boiled over? 

 

Mark Divine 5:06

For me I was extremely disciplined and athletic. And so I always trick myself. You know, I did high school and I was I had 12 varsity letters and, and so I didn’t really drink every day. You know, I didn’t, it wasn’t like I was, you know, it wasn’t doing anything that normal kids didn’t do. But I didn’t really have a shutoff valve. It’s like weekends come around to the party. You know, I’m always the one. The six pack was starter kit, you know? 

 

Matthew Weintraub 5:35

Sure.

 

Mark Divine  5:37  

And then I would feel like shit the next day and be like, oh, man, I’m not doing that again for another week or so you know. And anyways, and then that played out, you know, college, same thing. And I was in a fraternity, we went through 40 kegs of beer a week back in the day, Beta, Theta Pi, Colgate University. Imagine that. That’s pretty good job. Right? 

 

Matthew Weintraub 5:55

Yeah. 

 

Unknown Speaker  5:56  

Very creative. And then, of course, my work in New York City, I’m went to got my MBA CPA was getting my black belt. And so I was extremely disciplined. But, you know, on the weekends, I was blown out. And then the Navy that finally caught up to me, I just like, because you go out and you’re training for six weeks straight, you’re not touching anything, and you come home and your body is all pure. And you know, you just, you know, the whole setup with that kind of alcoholic behavior is like you’re ready for a reward, you know, because you’ve been busting your ass. And so I would go have my reward with my teammates. And you know, I would always overdo it. So I had to really take a look at that. Anyway, so it a lot of it is related to childhood trauma, and then you know, self medicating with these substances, which, you know, you can have, that all are addictive, but also you can have a proclivity for addiction based upon your family’s history with them. Or it could be just just the way you are.

It doesn’t have to even be your family having used them. 

 

Matthew Weintraub 6:55

Yeah, alcohol has changed over the over time, too. But my grandfather was an alcoholic. Never knew him. He wasn’t even invited in my mom’s wedding. 

 

Mark Divine 7:04

Oh, that’s rough. 

 

Matthew Weintraub 7:05

Yeah, he was a destructive individual. So I always make a joke that I’m kind of tiny. I have a genetic strength for drinking. I can keep up with the rest of them. 

 

Mark Divine 7:18

Yeah, well, it’s good to know that because then you can keep it in check. You know, there’s moments in our lives where things just change. What were some of the moments in your life where it’s like, okay, you woke up after that situation, and you’re like, okay, something’s different. And you change directions, or your whole worldview changed. 

 

Matthew Weintraub 7:35

When I was 17. I was at my friend’s backyard. I, one of my best friends in the world. Were in the backyard smoking pot. And Brent, he kind of did something dumb. He didn’t correctly turn off his parents alarm in their house. 

 

Mark Divine 7:50

Okay. 

 

Matthew Weintraub 7:50

And we live like 10 blocks down from a police station. 

 

Mark Divine 7:54

Right.

 

Matthew Weintraub 7:54

So an officer comes comes in our backyard. And long story short, I get arrested. 

 

Mark Divine 7:59

Okay.

 

Matthew Weintraub 7:59

Because I have all this pot. And that kind of really started to change my life. 

 

Mark Divine 8:04

Did you spend any time in jail? Or do they just like, slap your hand? 

 

Matthew Weintraub 8:07

Just the night. I mean, it was more scary calling my dad and having to listen to him. rip my ear off. 

 

Mark Divine 8:13

Yeah, still, that’s a pretty traumatic thing if you’re trying to be the good guy. 

 

Matthew Weintraub 8:17

Yeah. Well, what really happened to me there was it further cemented a couple of things, one, like paranoia. And it actually did help me in a way question society. Because I wasn’t doing anything destructive. I had great grades, I ended up getting a scholarship for university. That was just what I like to do. I didn’t like to drink as much. I like to smoke weed. Now I’m in jail. Now I’m on probation, peeng in front of somebody every week, which is pretty dehumanizing.

 

Mark Divine 8:50

It is

 

Matthew Weintraub 8:50

It just made me go, what is going on? And so I actually it actually focused my attention on the idea of what a police state is, What injustice is.

 

Mark Divine 9:00

Oh man, that’s such a great age to see that. And I want to get into that later on, because most people have no idea how much wool has been pulled over there. 

 

Matthew Weintraub 9:12

Yeah. 

 

Mark Divine 9:12

And then you know that what we’re living in today, and what’s, you know, it’s been building up slowly, but it’s becoming much more overt is a real different thing than what we’ve been taught that we live in. And so people need to wake up and see that.

 

Matthew Weintraub 9:26

Yeah.

 

Mark Divine 9:26

Because their freedoms are being stripped them faster and faster, and they’re being marched like a herd of cattle to the slaughterhouse, completely clueless that, that the path that they’re being shoved down is toward that slaughterhouse. 

 

Matthew Weintraub 9:39

Yeah, I mean, I spent my entire youth from the ages of 17 to 23 in the justice system. Now, I’m lucky. I come from a good background. My parents could afford to help me, right. I never had to spend time in jail. 

 

Mark Divine 9:56

Why did it take six years to work through all that just because you got I mean, 

did you have a lot of possession? 

 

Matthew Weintraub 10:02

The policiy was high school. That was the high school. And I had to do probation until I basically graduated. And I, I got arrested again.

 

Mark Divine 10:10

There you go. Two is one one is none. 

 

Matthew Weintraub  10:15  

Right. So then in the university when I was 19, we were set up, but we were trying to purchase LSD, which we did. And then we were busted. So that just further kept me in the throes of the system. 

 

Mark Divine 10:31

Yeah that sucks. All these things right pot and LSD. You know, I’m just going to be bold, and a lot of listeners will not agree with this, but they are relatively harmless, especially compared to alcohol. Alcohol has had more destructive force in this world than any Pot or anyone who’s used LSD. I mean, it’s crazy. Anyways, I’m happy to see that there’s this movement to legalize pot, I think it needs to be like anything else used in moderation, right? And with some intelligence, but um, it’s crazy that these were all made illegal. And they were made illegal because they were a threat to the government. Right? The government saw what happened in the movement of the 60s And they’re like, holy cow, if this continues, people continue to use these and to wake up and to see that they don’t need the security state and they don’t need this economic system and that they’ve actually made do on their own, living close to the Earth in harmony with one another. Look at John Lennon songs. I mean, the guy was murdered.

 

Matthew Weintraub 11:33

Whoa, are you talking about, like Christ level stuff right now? Because that’s crazy. 

 

Mark Divine 11:37

It’s crazy stuff. Yeah, John, I believe John Lennon was murdered. He wasn’t killed by some random dude, his message was the same as Jesus’s message, almost like he’s a reincarnation if you listened to Imagine All The People, you know, what an extraordinary message. Imagine a world with no religion. 

 

Matthew Weintraub 11:56

Yeah, John Lennon was the man. 

 

Mark Divine 11:58

He was the man, I hope listeners don’t think this is a little out there. I think about this stuff a lot. It’s really powerful and important to take a look at what really is going on. 

 

Matthew Weintraub 12:07

I want to add that what you added a caveat to your listeners about your belief in these what I call plant medicines. And I just want you listeners to know I’m the founder of legalized psychedelic medicine. And I’ve turned around my life around a lot in a lot of ways. 

 

Mark Divine 12:24

What do you mean by that? The founder, I know there’s a lot of movements and organizations that are working to legalize, you know, MDMA and psilocybin.

 

Matthew Weintraub 12:33

Sure

 

Mark Divine 12:33

And Ibogaine for depression and ketamine for anxiety and depression. But what does it mean, what you said to be the founder of legalized psychedelics. 

 

Matthew Weintraub 12:41

So my organization is just an advocacy organization.

 

Mark Divine 12:46

Is that the name of an organization. 

 

Matthew Weintraub 12:47

Yeah, it’s the name of my organization. 

 

Mark Divine 12:49

Oh, got it. Okay. 

 

Matthew Weintraub 12:50

So like, you can go to our website, right. We have advocated for the right to heal. For Americans right to heal with natural psychedelic medicine. And we advocate that for our veterans suffering from PTS, and other associated disorders from the hit and traumas of war, to sexual assault victims, eating disorder, anybody on that mental health spectrum, right. And we have the clinical research that shows that all these medicines have their own effectiveness for that. Our basic thing that we proposed at the Princeton’s federal level is, Hey, meet us halfway, reclassify these drugs, they’re not drugs, they’re medicines, right, reclassify them, so a doctor can prescribe them. And even that is tooth and nail, because as you mentioned, Big Pharma has no interest in helping the people.

 

Mark Divine 13:45

They want to control that.

 

Matthew Weintraub 13:46

They absolutely want to control it. And that’s partly why I’m stepping away from movement because I’m an indigenous person, as all those who are Jewish are and the way I work with the medicines you mentioned, we talked a little bit about like Ayahuasca stuff like this, I have a different view on how this should be integrated into society with respect for the Icaros, which are sacred prayers and sacred songs and ceremonies in a way it’s done. Because otherwise, right now, it feels a lot like appropriation, hey, I’m taking this I’m making it mine. And frankly, you and your ideas can piss off. That’s what it feels like.

 

Mark Divine 14:27

I really, really applaud that. Because I mentioned earlier with my work with the Courage Foundation and helping vets you know, I’ve advocated for the use of plant medicines. And I’ve seen some extraordinary results. And I’m someone who always I call it eating my own dog food. I won’t promote something that I don’t have experience with. So I have experienced down in Mexico, Ibogaine and 5MEO DMT and I saw the healing power of it with the vets that went through that program of experience with the ketamine treatment. And saw the healing power of that, and I’ve experienced Ayahuasca a number of times, so that incredibly healing part of that, and also psilocybin. And so I could see that and I experienced that, at the same time, I see what you’re talking about, like pharma, wanting to co opt it and, and to turn it into a drug that they can sell. And I see a lot of commercialization even beyond pharma or not, not yet inclusive of pharma, whereby it’s become almost like a hack, like a bio hack, like, Oh, we’re gonna, you know, we’re gonna, we’re gonna take a bunch of execs. 

And for $5,000, we’re going to pop them through an Ayahuasca ceremony, psilocybin, or do some toad. And I see a lot of these self proclaimed gurus conducting these events without the ceremony, without the very intense mental and psychological spiritual preparation, that and intentional work that is required to go into one of these events, these ceremonies, without the ability to truly hold the space and protect the space of the participants. And without the follow on after care, where the therapeutic process and the integration. 

And so people don’t recognize or realize that all of that is important, the pre that during in the post, and it all needs to be done under the very watchful caring, I have an expert, and I’m talking about an expert who’s trained for 20 or 30 years, not for one year. And I want to ask you about this after you finish here that that a lot of harm can come out of doing these things improperly, or for the wrong reasons. Or if you if you don’t have the right ego development, you know, if you have a fractured ego from childhood trauma, there’s a lot of harm that could come from doing psychedelics.

 

Matthew Weintraub 16:43

I had this tag, which is, I follow a lot of the developments across the country. And so for listeners who they don’t know, Oregon was really the first state to pass some type of legalization for psilocybin. And the group behind that was really a cadre of kind of business led individuals. 

 

Mark Divine 17:03

Paul Stamets was part of that thing, right. 

 

Matthew Weintraub 17:06

Yeah, the attention there was to basically create a bill or you could have medicalized facilities, and a bunch of other options to serve psilocybin to help people. Now, once things become active, right, everybody’s got their piece of the pie. And even though things should progress, it’s been very slow in terms of developing the regulations for that, and manipulations, right, there’s just politics. But the latest estimate was that one treatment with psilocybin were costs 1000s of dollars, like $3,000. 

 

Mark Divine 17:37

Wow

 

Matthew Weintraub 17:37

Now maybe that’s covered in some part by insurance, but that’s nuts. To give you an idea to grow mushrooms, whatever, that mushroom that they’re giving you maybe costs $5. 

 

Mark Divine 17:47

Yeah, if that.

 

Matt Weintraub 17:48

If that. That’s how easy and prolific they are to produce, then your services, all that other stuff. Like I have a center in Ecuador, we charge $1,500 for a 10 day retreat. Now you gotta fly there. And we’re trying to do good price for the people. Good service. And so yeah, it’s just kind of nuts. And the same estimates are for the MDMA therapy. I agree with what you said, which is that these medicines have a spiritual element to them. That’s just not my thoughts. That’s actually clinical research from John Hopkins University. So the question is, Well, where did these come from? Well, they’re, they’re natural to the earth. They grow naturally, some are synthesized into synthetics. And indigenous people, indigenous cultures, are still working with these medicines. So everybody from the West is leaving United States, whether it’s our veterans with that Courage of Hearts project, and all those folks doing great work, or just individuals who the Western healthcare system is not helping, they’re leaving our country, because they don’t have the right to heal here are going to these tribes, and people may have an association with that, but really indigenous persons that know how to live in harmony with nature, and they’re finding healing. That’s amazing. What we should be asking as a culture is, how can we learn from you? How can you teach us? That’s reciprocity? How can we work together with you? That’s reciprocity. And that’s how we, in my mind, build a new way forward. And I see a lot of these veterans organizations already doing that by developing their own integration program using Western clinical psychology as a support system, for that psychedelic therapy experience. So I think that’s really important. I think it’s really important that because we have become such an ego driven culture, which I think is pushing us, in a way towards a cataclysmic societal death or rebirth, is that it can be traumatic if you don’t have a safe container. If you don’t have a support for integration.

 

Mark Divine 19:44

Do you mean when you do it if you do a psychedelic plant medicine experience. 

 

Matthew Weintraub 19:49

Yeah, I think preparation is really important.

 

Mark Divine 19:51

Yeah, I’ve seen some people have very traumatic, painful experiences that can last mess them up for months. It’s hard to know if it’s just psycho, emotional or whether there is some sort of, you know, spiritual attack that happens, you know, from because the space isn’t protected or I mean, what’s your take on that? I mean, it could be both.

 

Matthew Weintraub 20:09

It’s a good question. And when you get into the spirit world, dealing with spirit, we’re dealing with spirit. There’s light, there’s also darkness. 

 

Mark Divine 20:19

That’s right. 

 

Matthew Weintraub 20:20

And there are entities that one might not be able to see, we call those unclean spirits. And there are ways to get rid of unclean spirits. There are ways to hold the space. In my lineage, you know, typically, it’s at least four years to eight years training, right to earn your tobacco pipe, to basically even then still be granted by the chief, that belief and right to hold that space, right? Because it is a different type of science. I’m curious, just because I have, you know, some experience and curiosity around this. And my stepdaughter, Catherine is very adept at the Ayahuasca plant, and holding space and ceremony. But um, I understand that, obviously, the stronger and the more light an individual is, the more aware let’s just say the more evolved, the much less likely and unclean energy or spirit is going to be able to approach right. So the only way that happens is if an individual is very confused, and weak, or if they invite it in, because I’ve literally been in a room with an individual and there were psychedelics happening and I I just ran out as soon as this happened. I was like, Okay, this is a clear sign. This is an unsafe environment, where he claimed that he was actually Arjuna, right that was the name in Arjuna was a entity that was occupying him, right. And he started to be really mean to me and telling me I had all this anger. And I was like, You know what? This is not happening. And I just turned around and walked out of that whole situation. And I was like, wondered, I asked myself, How did I even get there to begin with, right because this was unsafe environment and what they were doing in the name of healing in this coaching group was not safe. 

Anyways, I went down a little rabbit hole there, but I just want to get your perspective on that. I think it’s fascinating, and it’s important for people to hear.

 

Matthew Weintraub 22:!8

Yeah, for me, it’s important. I’m working to build alliances with chiefs from indigenous nations. In hopes that we can work together to create a certification standard for cuanderos. Cuanderos, meaning healers, medicine men and women, so that we can offer confidence to the Westerners that there is a standard, nothing is perfect. We’re all humans and infallible. So that’s important to note. There’s a reason why we do certain things along El Camino Rojo, the red path to purify ourselves. Vision Quest, which is praying in nature without food or water. 

 

Mark Divine 22:59

What’s the red path? Explain that a little bit more. 

 

Matthew Weintraub 23:01

Yeah, the red path, the first thing is red. So according to the Medicine Wheel of indigenous nations, primarily in North and South America, the medicine wheel is made up of four colors, black, yellow, white, and red. Those four colors on a wheel represents the wheel of life, a circle of life, those colors each represent a color of man. So black, white, yellow, red, the races of man. These are colors, the red path represents the red people of the Americas. So that path means it’s a way of life. So their way of life, which I typically call the way of loving kindness, because their life is based on charity and love and sharing and equality and harmony with all their relations to all the animals, plants, spirits, air, earth, water, it’s beautiful. And so that’s what the red path is. 

Now, for them to live that way they have various disciplines that they practice throughout their life, in order to maintain that purity and sanctity of their vessel in their heart and their mind. 

 

Mark Divine 24:04

Yeah, and the medicines are used periodically, at certain ritualistic points, like initiation into adulthood or to the warrior class or, you know, some great changes coming or transition of a life, right? Things like that, or for intervention, if it’s, you know, if some sort of spirit or individual has kind of strayed off the path, is that right? They’re not used recreationally or randomly.

 

Matthew Weintraub 24:29

correct. Yeah, that’s not part of the path. There is a seriousness of respect for these medicines, because the indigenous perspective is that everything is alive. The universe is alive. That’s why gave birth to us and the tree is there. We know all these things are alive now with science. And so it’s about having respect for that. Because they are their own entity. And though they give their life to help us remember, because we’re just remembering, we forgotten that we’re all connected that we are nature that we are love, God is love. 

John 4:8 reminds us of that. That’s the highest teaching, I would say just so people understand in ceremony, what happens is, you typically are saying sacred prayers, sacred songs, where you’re calling in from people don’t like the idea, but you’re just calling in good spirits, the angels, etc, to hold space. Because the way we look at healing in a circle is that the herd of one is a herd of all, so we heal together, by you healing by me healing in a circle, we’re making the whole world better. And not only that, in that circle, the real perspective is that the medicine, the plant medicine, in the West, we have this materialistic mind, the medicine the way the indigenous perspective sees it is, it’s not necessarily that’s what’s causing the healing. The medicine is really there to almost say help you relax and open up to the prayer of healing. So these healers are really calling in, they’re calling in prayers and saying, hey, great spirit, Hey, God, creator, God, please help my brothers and sisters here in this circle, help them heal, help them find healing. And that’s what we’re praying for. And these medicines, the scientists in the West are just saying it’s just this. Indigenous says, No, it’s not. That’s just a part of it.

 

Mark Divine 26:21

That’s right, the medicine is just the the tool, or the activator. I totally agree with that. I mean, my perspective is that we’re all consciousness. And suffering occurs when you mistake yourself as an individual identity, which is the human condition, the ego, takes ownership of the consciousness that’s running through us, takes ownership of it. And then it projects that out as a separate individual, separate and time and space from all others. This is by design. But it leads to a lot of suffering in the white man, maybe even the yellow, I don’t know, but less so the red and the black, have wandered so far from the idea of unity, or, or all this consciousness and we are all that having this beautifully diverse experience. 

To think that the individuality is so strong and so distinct, that they’re always in some sort of violent relationship with the world. And the entire economic system, and judicial system and system of medicine, and even nation states is all set up to fight for your piece for your survival, whether that’s at an individual or collective scale. And you made a comment earlier that that problem is so acute and so entrenched that it’s barreling this global civilization toward a precipice because it’s absolutely unsustainable. 

And Mother Earth would just shrug it off and say, You know what? Try again, and the indigenous people will be just fine, right? And things will start over. 

 

Matthew Weintraub 27:58

Yeah, we have a choice. We are at a crossroads as a world, and the choices are really going to come down to do we want to make a new world together? Do we want to embrace spiritual change, and work together for a better world for our children and our children’s children? Or do we want to push towards the judgment day? Do we really want to push that far, that hard. And that also requires us to acknowledge Mark that we are the problem. But the hope is that we can recognize we’re also the solution, it’s a choice. And so we have to start taking responsibility. All those constants you just talked about, some might say, the best description for that is colonialism is a system of take control ownership. 

And the indigenous perspective is so opposite of that, just based on sharing. And to me, that’s what Christianity is. You want to learn Christianity, go spend some time with the tribes, see how they take care of each other, the other taking care of the Westerners who need their help. 

 

Mark Divine 29:00

Yeah, in Jesus core teachings are so far off from what the church puts out. It’s a shame. 

 

Matthew Weintraub 29:07

This is where I’d like to add a point to that. I can’t practice my religion freely in the United States of America. I thought that’s why we created this country. I believe that I practice what I consider original Christianity, which is a indigenous form of Torah, because Jesus was a rabbi, he taught Torah and he was a Jewish man. And his message was co-opted by state power. Being the Cabal at the time was Babylon, based in Rome. Systems still going wild today? Well, that whole system ownership I really consider it Babylon. And so for me, I’ve spent all my savings to help create awareness and create change, but I can’t practice my religion here. So I’m always going to Ecuador, you know, for kind of like a tune-up to get away to be in nature, but I’m hurting myself, because all I want to do is help others help people heal. And I have to do that in my way. But America has made my own religion illegal. So I have a really difficult time trying to love my country. Because I feel like my country doesn’t care about me. 

 

Mark Divine 30:16

Well, I would say you’re probably right. And you know, whatever is in charge of our country, these days, it’s been brewing for many, many years, probably a lot longer than we are aware. But it certainly doesn’t have our interests at heart. And I say that, you know, with complete, like awareness and honesty that a lot of people won’t agree with me, but I see what’s going on. And there’s some very, very powerful forces that have taken over this country. 

 

Matthew Weintraub 30:43

How do you think we can change? 

 

Mark Divine 30:44

Well, you know, here’s my view, you don’t fight evil, with evil, you don’t fight power or force with force. So what you do is you draw attention away from it, by ignoring it, and doing what’s right. And so I see communities like your communities and indigenous communities and individuals and blockchain, decentralized communities and, and people who are turning toward the light. And recognizing that, because of technology, which has all this destructive capacities, we also have the capacity to be the change we want to see at scale. 

So just like Gandhi said, you want to change the world, change your world. But can you imagine 100 million, and then a billion people changing their worlds together by turning toward the light by turning toward sharing economy by turning toward love instead of fear by turning toward, you know, sustainability, instead of stripping the earth bare, and just drawing all the energy away from the old power structures? Now, can that happen fast enough to tip the balance? Only God knows? I think so. Right? I think everything ultimately in the universe is in balance. But that doesn’t mean that civilizations don’t destroy themselves. And everything is still in balance in the universe. Right? So it’s hopeful that humanity doesn’t destroy itself. And I, and I think there’s enough light and goodness going on. It’s just hidden, right? It’s hidden because the mainstream media doesn’t touch it with a 10 foot pole. And corporations don’t touch it. But it’s happening, these conversations like were having, it’s happening all over the place. It’s accelerating, in my view.

 

Matthew Weintraub 32:20

Because everything you just said, which was beautifully said, I pray for that.

 

Mark Divine 32:24

Yeah, me too.

 

Matthew Weintraub 32:24

And try to hold that. And hopefully, my own story in a small way, can help others wake up. And basically what happened was, I wrote a book, by the way, I’m gonna plug it real quick. 

 

Mark Divine 32:34

No, I was gonna ask you more about that. The Psychedelic Origin of Religion, is that it, or is it the other one, you have two books, right? 

 

Matthew Weintraub 32:40

I’m working on the second one. 

 

Mark Divine 32:42

Okay.

 

Matthew Weintraub 32:42

So God gave me a vision. And as part of that vision, I ended up writing this book, and the vision was when I started having ayahuasca experiences took me even way deeper than what I’ve been working on the surface level with mushrooms and myself, personal healing. God challenged me gave me a vision, this insight that maybe every religion is actually rooted in this psychedelic experience. 

 

Mark Divine 33:09

I think they all certainly use medicine, for sure. There’s references to it in the yoga tradition, which some people would call Hinduism, but ultimately, it was the Vedic tradition. And there’s references to and Christianity and early Gnostic tradition. So I think you’re right. 

 

Matthew Weintraub 33:23

The craziest part of my book was learning that not only is every religion rooted in this experience, and not only do these psychedelic experiences, pave and lead the way for the belief in reincarnation, or an eternal life, and salvation, was that the life of Yeshua HaMashiach, Jesus, the Christ being the anointed one. Most Christians, they never asked this question, which is funny to me. So Jesus comes back to his hometown to start preaching. He’s 30 something. And nobody goes, Hey, Jesus, where have you been for last seven? 

 

Mark Divine 33:58

Where were you? There’s tons and tons of references of him being in India.

 

Matthew Weintraub 34:04  

You’re right.

 

Mark Divine 34:05

Learning as a yogi, right. So he became an advanced yogi and enlightened master. And there’s some extraordinary practices that the yogi’s have the mind can do a lot without psychedelics. And you know, I’ve had even though they’re they existed in the ancient yogic tradition, and in the Ayurvedic tradition , Ayurvedic, I should say, some of the most advanced Yogi’s who were presented with LSD and these things by Westerners and explore and say, okay, yeah, like Ramana Maharshi has a great story. Some Westerners who were students, you know, brought him LSD, and it gave him like, serious dosages because it just had no effect on him. And finally, he just opens his eyes and looks at him, he goes, Oh, I see. You want to feel powerful. So he was warning them that they were using it improperly for a spiritual awakening or in the problem that a lot of those if you use psychedelics as your spiritual practice, than your ego will co opt it. 

 

Matthew Weintraub 34:57

Yes.

 

Mark Divine 34:57

And you get them up in what’s called a spiritual bypass. Since suddenly the I ego I in you, suddenly thinks it’s God, or godlike, as opposed to using the medicine to heal the emotional body and integrate spirit to experience the God in you. Beyond the ego. 

 

Matthew Weintraub 35:14

This is a consequence, again of our materialist, materialistic kind of programming, that more is better. 

 

Mark Divine 35:22

That’s right. 

 

Matthew Weintraub 35:22

That’s kind of how we think of things more money, everything more and more and more. The other thing I’d like to add is that people might go, Oh, Mark, people have said that about Christ but is there proof. There’s proof that lives in the Isha documen.t Isha is a sacred name that was assigned to Christ in the Hemis monastery in Ladakh, which is the northernmost part of India, of which there are two that are made, and that is run by the Duke Paul Kagyu lineage, of which that lineage I am working with one of the lamas from that lineage and hopes will access that document and 2024. 

 

Mark Divine 35:58

Nice. I have come across a reference in numerous occasions. I’ve studied with Yogi’s who know where Jesus did his work. He’s even listed in the lineage of one of most famous American Yogi’s are taught in America. Paramahansa Yogananda like yes, he’s known as, as part of the lineage.

 

Matthew Weintraub 36:14

He’s revered in India, as a…

 

Mark Divine 36:16

He is revered in India as a master,.

 

Matthew Weintraub 36:19

One of his names that he was given was Isha Putra.

 

Mark Divine 36:21

Isha Putra, one I have never heard of 

 

Matthew Weintraub 36:23

It translates to Son of God. 

 

Mark Divine 36:24

Yeah.

 

Matthew Weintraub  36:25

Why do you come back and go, I’m a Shia, which means Messiah and in Aramaic Hebrew, because they were like, This guy’s Buddha.

 

Mark Divine  36:32  

Yeah, he was considered what’s called an avatar.

 

Matthew Weintraub  36:34

Yes.

 

Mark Divine 36:35

Right. The Avatar concept is some, some spirits, like the average human, you know, is, is on this ascension journey. And, you know, you just keep coming back in reincarnation to, you have to basically deal with the karmic energies of your past and to learn to evolve, to experience. But if you have an entity that has basically completed all that, a being that has completed all that, and then has the ability to merge back into oneness, with source, there may be a time where they’re, they’re called, like on a mission. They don’t need to reincarnate. They don’t need to come here to experience you know, Jesus didn’t need to come here to experience martyrdom. That was just what was called for, to seed the knowledge. Now, the knowledge got distorted and co-opted by the church, but that was foreseen, right. And it was probably known that it would stick several 1000 years to play out. But  that’s what an avatar is. And it’s considered he was considered an avatar along with the Buddha and, and a few others. 

 

Matthew Weintraub 37:36

Now today because of false teachings, and the Trinity is one of them. Most Christians relate to Christ as the only avatar.

 

Mark Divne 37:46

The only son of God. God doesn’t exist in anybody else is something that’s out there and you need the church as a liaison. It’s totally wrong.

 

Matthew Weintraub 37:52

The reason that’s wrong. It’s not that Christ wasn’t an avatar he is. Wasn’t an he’s Messiah. He is Messiah. He, what he’s called Mushiyam and Yosef, in the Jewish people don’t know this about Mushiyam and Yosef, because he’s described as a suffering Messiah, who Jesus was as Messiah who was rejected who he was. And as somebody who would spread the Torah, to the Gentiles, which he did. 2 billion people now trying to maintain the the essential teaching of Christ was of Torah, love God with all thy heart, soul and mind, and love thy neighbor. Those are both in Torah, but he said, If you love your neighbor, the reason it’s so important, because everyone’s a child of God. So you’re loving God by loving your neighbor. 

And that was radical. And he was so radical. He taught that men and women were equal. That was radical. For 300 years, the Empire killed Christians as terrorists because they wanted women as slaves as chattel. So they commandeer Christianity at first to keep women as slaves. So it’s the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost, what about the grandmother, daughter, granddaughter? 

 

Mark Divine 38:56

I have a different perspective. I agree with you the way that that Christianity taught the Trinity is completely bogus and is flawed. But if you look at the Trinity, from the yogi perspective, it’s exactly the same as Satchitananda; the Father, the Sat, that’s beingness, that source that’s the Godhead, the source of all and chit, Chit is the word and it’s the movement is the creative force, and Ananda is the love the bliss that flows through all beings living, all living beings, including nonsentient beings, where we would consider nonsentient is all is a Nanda. So that’s the sun. Now that’s the Holy Spirit’s Father, Son, the Holy Spirit Satchitinanda.

 

Matthew Weintraub 39:34

What’s really affected Christianity is this awareness or over focus on the masculine because you need both.

 

Mark Divine 39:39

That’s right.

 

Matthew Weintraub 39:40

In the Torah, called the concert district Kena, which is the Divine Feminine Christ mentions this in the book of Hebrews, the Holy Mother, Sophia, and my father, my mother, who thou are in heaven, because there’s both of those energies.

 

Mark Divine 39:54

Which corresponds to the yin and the yang, masculine, feminine receptive in the active energies of the of the far Eastern traditions.

 

Matthew Weintraub 40:00

Exactly so Eastern I agree with you like I’m not against the awareness of the Father, Son Holy Ghost, but I think it’s been co opted to like, again drive this really idol worship, because it’s about God there’s one God Yahweh, and we, you know, all reverence to Creator God. 

 

Mark Divine 40:17

Fascinating stuff.

 

Matthew Weintraub 40:18

There is the tag though, because the the Buddhists were drinking their own version of the psychedelic brew. So we’re the Hindus, with the soma, and the Zoroastrians, as well, often the Christ had experienced with on his journey. And that’s actually what he was using as a Eucharist, a psychedelic Eucharist psychedelic wine, which is an archaeological record giving sight to the blind.

 

Mark Divine 40:39

Really.

 

Matthew Weintraub 40:39

That spiritual sight.

 

Mark Divine 40:40

Right.

 

Matthew Weintraub 40:41

The anointing oils of the Jewish people are made of cannabis, I’m pretty sure he probably made hashish, which is the highest concentration which they use in the Himalayas today. So, again, I think there’s a lack of awareness that Christ was, he was a master of meditation and fasting, we know all this right going into the woods, just as his practice and his teaching is so pure, so beautiful. But he was also working with these medicines to help people. And to me what’s so redeeming, as somebody who didn’t really understand Judaism, is to realize that Christ really taught the highest version of Torah. And to me that’s redeeming and awesome to tell Christians like, hey, like, this is awesome, we need to go back to like the psychedelic rituals and healing. And then the same thing on the Jewish side of like, hey, we actually should really learn from Christ in his life, right to help reform because the Jewish people are just as lost. I feel like as the Christian people.

 

Mark Divine 41:37

Yeah, well, because the institutions have become bureaucratic and power structures in the Western world. And the bureaucratic power structure leads, basically to the ascension of the most powers seeking people who are not the ones that are seeking the truth. They’re operating to seek their own aggrandizement and their own power, it’s gonna have to change, right, and I think the work you’re doing is awesome, and I really applaud it, there’s many different ways that people will come to this truth, that many, you know, 1000s of points of light out there, and I encourage all the listeners to start exploring and investigating poking holes in the dogma, and, and, and the stories that you’ve been told, and more you, slow down and stop and just stop being an actor, on those are with those are in as part of those stories, then when they settle down, you begin to discern the truth, the truth is inside of us all, but we’re just way too busy and distracted, and have had this massive conditioning of our minds that is completely hidden from us. One thing that’s beautiful about psychedelics is that they put a temporary pause on all that activity of your mind, and they break down some of those structures. And you can see through at least temporarily, you can see through and discern the truth.

 

Matthew Weintraub 42:52

Yes. 

 

Mark Divine 42:52

And then you can come back and start to work with that. That’s why the integration is really important. So you don’t just immediately go right back to your old ways, you know, pretend it didn’t happen, because that’s what the mind the ego will do. Like, that’s scary, you know, ego wants to hold on to his limited contracted sense of self because, ultimately, and Jesus even said this or like an St. Francis prayer, like, peace is found by the death of the ego. And that means death of the identification as an independent, separate being, and the recognition that we are all one with God. We all have the same source we are that is Maharajah I am that or better said that is what we are not ego but source. And when we can live from that perspective, we don’t lose anything. The ego thinks it loses everything. We gain everything. And then we can live in absolute harmony while applauding and appreciating and reveling in the diversity, as opposed to using the diversity of divide and for the separate. 

 

Matthew Weintraub 43:52

That’s a good sound clip. 

 

Mark Divine 43:54

Hooyah!

 

Matthew Weintraub 43:54

Hooyah! Or the meek shall inherit. 

 

Mark Divine 43:59

That’s right. And the meek is misinterpreted is not actually a direct translation and meek doesn’t mean weak. It means humble. 

 

Matthew Weintraub 44:05

Yes, I’m glad you know this. This is a mis translation from the Greek. Right that the humble that those who have gotten rid of this ego worship, which is really to me a form of Satanism, those are the ones who will inherit the kingdom. 

 

Mark Divine 44:21

That’s interesting. I love it. Wow. Okay. So Psychedelic Origin of Religion. Congratulations that’s out. And bookstores, you have a place that people who are interested in you know your work. Want to reach out to you and learn more about Ecuador. How do you like people to connect with you? Yeah, it’s great. My Instagram, at Heytrub, H-E-Y-T-R-U-B. I have links to all that and links to our center in Ecuador, links to my book, on my other projects, working on a movement to heal Earth. So just slowly but surely, you know, day by day trying to do my part. That’s the best way. 

 

Mark Divine 44:56

Okay, let’s spell that out. Again, for listeners.

 

Matthew Weintraub 44:59  

HeyTrub.

 

Mark Divine 45:03

What does that mean? 

 

Matthew Weintraub 45:07

Hey trub my last name is Weintraub. So like Trub, trouble.

 

Mark Divine 45:07

Okay. Heytrub. I thought it was maybe some sort of term.

 

Matthew Weintraub 45:11

Nah, I’ve had that handle forever just kept it. And then I have a website heal.earth, which should have links there. 

 

Mark Divine 45:18

Nice. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your work and for your time today it’s a fascinating conversation.

Some people probably think we’re a little out there.

 

Matthew Weintraub 45:27

Good.

 

Mark Divine 45:28

But I don’t care. That’s good, right? Because we need that kind of thinking. We need people to think differently and to start taking seriously because most people don’t recognize how sick this western world is in the Western mind. And in the healing is there the potential for healing is there. It’s right right there. You just got to look forward and ask for it and have the courage to go go in that direction. 

 

Matthew Weintraub 45:47

I would want to add one last tag to what you said, which is if I have one message to share with people at this moment, especially my American family, is that we need to restore the right to heal with God’s natural medicines, the psychedelic plant medicines. And I believe when we do that, we will put this country back on a path to salvation. 

 

Mark Divine 46:10

Yeah. Hooyah, as we say in the SEAL’s.

 

Matthew Weintraub 46:10

Hooyah!

 

Mark Divine  46:15  

Matthew, man, thanks so much. 

 

Mark Divine 46:16

God bless. 

 

Mark Divine 46:17

Stay in touch. Let me know how we can help and appreciate you. 

 

Matthew Weintraub 46:21

Appreciate you brother. Thank you. 

 

Mark Divine  46:26  

All right. That was a fascinating conversation. Holy cow. Hope you enjoyed it with Matthew Weintraub, thank you so much, Matthew, it really, really interesting. Went off the reservation a little bit with some of our personal interests, I guess in the origin of religion and psychedelics in all religious traditions that have been pretty much written out by the power structures, and the power of psychedelics when used properly, to evolve, develop spirit and to reintegrate and heal. Amazing very important. If you want to learn more about Matt, or his center in Ecuador. You can check it out at www.hayulima.com, hayulima.com.

Shownotes are up at MarkDivine.com and the YouTube video beyond the YouTube channel. You can find me on Twitter at Mark Divine and on Instagram and Facebook at real Mark Divine. Now, you can reach out to me on my Instagram channel. 

If you’re not on my newsletter, you might find that interesting comes out every Tuesday morning Where I bring you show notes from the week’s podcast, a blog that I’ve written, a book that I’m reading, and other information that comes across my desk, which I think is worthy to go to Mark Divine.com to subscribe and share it with your friends. Thanks so much to my team, Jason Sanderson and Geoff Haskell and Catherine Divine, who will produce the podcast and newsletter and bring incredible guests like Matthew to every week. Reviews and ratings are extremely helpful. So you haven’t reviewed or rated the Mark Divine show, please consider doing so wherever you listen, thanks for being part of the change you want to see in the world. They say many times, imagine a world where 100 million people or more are thinking positively or open hearted are seeing the sameness instead of the separation, and are turning away from the violence and the control and the greed of that insidious Western mindset that has been baked into us so we can do the work. Don’t do it by fighting the power structures. We do it by ignoring them by laughing and by harmoniously building the more beautiful world that our hearts knows as possible. Stealing a plug from my friend Charles Eisenstein, I love that term. Let’s build a more beautiful world that our hearts know as possible. Till next time this your host Mark Divine Hooyah!

 

Transcribed by Catherine and https://otter.ai