Mark Divine  0:09  

Hi, I’m Mark Divine. And this is the Mark Divine show. As most of you know, I don’t just host a podcast, I’m also the author in the founder of SEALFIT. SEALFIT uses the concepts detailed in my books, Unbeatable Mind and The Way the SEAL to help CEOs, athletes, military leaders, and everyday people like you and me, build mental fortitude, optimize their professional personal lives and build stronger teams and happier relationships. The program was originally created for the Navy SEALs and has proven to be extraordinarily effective for them. We’ve worked with leaders from Google, Nike, Amazon, SpaceX, YPO, Harvard, Philadelphia Flyers, Green Bay Packers and hundreds more. To learn about how you or your company could benefit from our integrated training events and online courses and coaching programs, visit unbeatablemind.com/show, visit sealfit.com/show, visit MarkDivine.com/show. On this show explore what it means to be fearless through the lens of the world’s most inspirational, compassionate and resilient leaders. I talk to notable people from all walks of life, Grandmaster martial artists, military special operators, high powered CEOs, and even shamanic therapists. Today we’re going to be talking with a licensed clinical psychologist about the inner soul sanctuary. Our guest describes herself as a shamanic eco psychologist, where she helps people in lining heal their emotional and energy energetic bonds with nature using relaxed and meditative states that allowed them to connect more clearly to their soul and body’s wisdom. Dr. Lorraine Van Tuyl is a shamanic eco psychologist, as I mentioned, licensed clinical psychologist, author of The Memoir: The Amazon Wisdom Keeper, and her self-help book Soul Authority. Dr. Van Tuyl. Nice to have you on the show.

 

Loraine Van Tuyl  1:51  

It’s a delight to be here. I’m really excited. 

Mark Divine  1:55  

Yeah, me as well. I mean, I was reading your background. And I think it’s fascinating. I can’t wait to talk about what a shamanic eco psychologist is or does I mean, that’s fascinating. And I have some experience with you know, the shamanic paths. And I’m excited. You know, I’m not your typical Navy SEAL, although many more are kind of getting into healing modalities with healing medicines and things like that. And we’ve been recommending therapy and as part of our mental training for years. Before we kind of dig into your specifics, your books and the work that you’re doing, can you just give us a little bit of background? And what, where’d you grow up? Then, you know, what were your formative experiences and mentors and what kind of got you on this path?

 

Loraine Van Tuyl  2:36  

Sure, I’d love to talk about that. I’m from Surinam, formerly known as Dutch, Genie. It’s a little country right above Brazil, we speak Dutch. They’re one of the few countries where they don’t speak Spanish, it’s considered to be the most tree-covered nation in the world.

 

Mark Divine 2:53

Really

 

Loraine Van Tuyl 2:54

ah Yes, and as a sensitive empath. Like many others, I hid in nature in the jungle that was interspersed around my house. And I used to imagine that I was Mowglie. I was very intuitive. I already had an intuitive sense of what was off in the world, in the modern world. This is a third world country. But I still had enough exposure to that my parents both studied in Europe before they came back. So it was a very diverse country, lots of ancient traditions and more modern traditions. And I fear towards the elements at a young age because my father was very into nature. He’s an architect as well. And I don’t know if you know anything about the elements in Chinese culture, 

 

Mark Divine 3:42

Sure yeah, right. And Ayurvedic as well.

 

Loraine Van Tuyl 3:46

Right, so the ideas of the generative cycles and the opposite so I had a good inner sense of harmony and how things were supposed to work together and also when things were split, and so sometimes, you know, the conversation about all this stuff can get so woo esoteric, but I think if we bring it down to just mind body, heart and soul, and for me to connect this to air, fire, earth and water, and I already felt like my my mother was too much fire too much Earth too rigid, sometimes too hot. And my my dad was too water-like, and they would use language like that to be proud of it. 

 

Mark Divine  4:24  

Well, I think that that’s my when you study it from the Chinese perspective, which which I’ve done through Qigong, and the Ayurvedic or Indian perspective, it makes perfect sense. But when it, you know, kind of got translated through New Age language here in the West, it started to lose some of its integrity and grounding. And I think that’s why a lot of people think it’s woowoo or kind of a discount. I think the New Age era and languaging really turned a lot of people off. That’s my perspective. I don’t know if you agree with that, but it’s important to bring it back and really ground it in the ancient teachings.

 

Loraine Van Tuyl  5:02  

Yes. And I have taoist, I I’m very multicultural. And my my father, both my father and mother have some taoists roots. And I believe that some of that also was passed down just in the bones and in my knowing, you know, in regards to the Yin Yang symbol that makes sense at a very young age already, I was upset, I must tell you, that I did not feel as attune to the Chinese way, especially when I got exposed to the more Lakota way, which were more the four elements instead of the five. And that made more sense to me. And I brought that home in terms of my body and my sense of balance of the four directions. And like I said, that Mind, Body Spirit, heart.

 

Mark Divine  5:46  

Did you have formal training of that down in Dutch Genie, or was it just all, kind of intuitive?

 

Loraine Van Tuyl  5:51  

It was more of what’s around from the culture and family. But I did have very formal training around the shamanic and the Eco psychological energy medicine, Buddhist psychology, all of that through in the US, after I got my doctorate degree, at the foundation of the sacred stream, and work more with my own spirit guides and my own body sense and just being exposed to you know, sweat lodges, things like that it just downloaded and it was in a whole different framework. And I was very upset, struggling, why couldn’t match. Because I was very worried about, you know, cultural appropriation, all of that, and I held back for years. So that was just an interesting aspect to it. But I think that was part of my training, to continue to be multicultural and integrative, and…

 

Mark Divine  6:41  

Right, so give us a sense, you know, of your path from growing up, down in that beautiful rainforest, or, you know, the most tree populated place on the planet, to kind of the Western world where you’re now in Northern California, what was your educational path, like? And, you know, did your parents come up here, was it just you, I mean, give us a sense for kind of how you ended up here.

 

Loraine Van Tuyl  7:02  

So of course, as in all places, it was not proud of free of crisis and issues we left because of a cultural revolution, military coup, and I was only 13-14 years old, and I had my lifeline there, had my soul sanctuary in nature, and move to the concrete jungles of Miami. So that was a big adjustment. I was selectively mute, I struggled with being teased and English not being my first language, I was, you know, really retreating. But because of that retreating, I found that inner sanctuary within myself. So I now spell retreat, T-r-e-e-T, and it has a lot to do with what I learned and how I retreated there. But my family, I not of a lineage of shamanic practitioners, healers, or any of that even psychology was like way out there. But you’re going to become a psychologist and work with crazy people. So my traditional path that going to UC Davis becoming a psychology major, and then a clinical psychologist, was already out there, and the closest I could come to healing but as I went through my education, I felt really conflicted because of some of the Western modalities and the ways in which trauma and healing all of that was approached. And so that’s when I had a spontaneous shamanic initiation and breakthrough of so much wisdom coming through. And after my degree, my diser…it started with my dissertation when I went back home and studied more about you know, this, these worldviews, but after that, I got my certifications in depth hypnosis and all of that, and integrated those two frameworks now.

 

Mark Divine  8:52  

Right, you just mentioned the term spontaneous shamanic initiation. Can you tell us about that, and what that experience was like and what it meant for you?

 

Loraine Van Tuyl  9:01  

Yeah. So growing up in Surinam, I feel like in the Western world, or at least in the US, your ego mind is more online, and you’re not even quite aware of that. And with ego minds, I also mean, and not to cripple the ego mind, but this polarizing way of looking at reality, much more split. It’s an important way of looking at reality, looking at what’s pain and pleasure, life/death, all those you know, success, failures, all those opposites. But in Surinam, there was a much more holistic soulful way of integrating all these light and dark experiences. And so I felt really, like I was clashing against some of these perspectives when I was in a doctoral study, a student. And in my ethics class, there was a particular article and facing that really did not sit well with me, which was; If you use your intuition, and trust that more than evidence based studies, you are being unethical. And this could be like auto-compliance with some of our regulations. And so as a third year student that was really, really bothering me, because I did not know what I was in for. I was like, my whole life, my short life, I’ve been trusting my intuition to heal and there is no way I, you know, where am I to go?

 

Mark Divine 10:29  

Yeah, that seems like such an obviously flawed perspective, by the way, which I completely agree. I’m in my doctoral program right now. And I really, I recognize that those are flawed and limiting belief systems that are baked into the scientific materialistic kind of Western way of education and medicine and everything.

 

Loraine Van Tuyl 10:47

Right. 

 

Mark Divine 10:48

And so I just kind of like, you know, smile and wave and know that it’s actually the combination of, you know, hard and soft, of east and west ,and intuition and and hard science, you know. We’ve seen that recently, you know, trust the science has, you know, really gotten interesting, the past couple of years. 

 

Loraine Van Tuyl  11:05  

Yeah, for sure, for sure. And I love that. And I applaud the field. I’m not also like totally anti, this was 25 years ago. And it was a lot more rigid. And it all depends on the different programs, there are holistic and integrative programs that are totally open and doing it right. But my particular program was heavy on the research, very rigorous, and, you know, they had a point, I mean, there’s a lot of things that people think work based on their own personal experiences, but that does not necessarily mean it’s going to work with your clients, so

 

Mark Divine  11:37  

It’s not an either or, right,

 

Loraine Van Tuyl  11:40  

There gonna be some checks and balances,

 

Mark Divine  11:42  

right? If, for instance, hard science when medicine is valuable, you know, if something’s really broken, but we should lead with holistic health and, and wellness, right? 

Loraine Van Tuyl 11:54

Right, right

 

Mark Divine 11:55

To make sure the system is healthy, whole immune system strong, you know, the mind is strong, because the mind is what creates the body’s conditions for for success or disease,

 

Loraine Van Tuyl 12:04

 Right, right. 

 

Mark Divine 12:05

So start there, you know, start with the mind, start with nutrition, start with exercise, start with sleep, start with, you know, energy, then you couple it with the Western science, you know, just ignore all that stuff,

 

Loraine Van Tuyl  12:15  

Right, the bias in my particular program in clinical psychology, it wasn’t that they were against any of those interventions. They had a big bias on evidence based studies. And many of these evidence based studies did not have an interest in the holistic way and intervention. So it was like a vicious cycle. And especially if you’re from other cultures, and other ways, you know, they’re, you’re even more marginalized. So what I ended up doing is like, doing my own dissertation, my own study on what I thought was under-studied wasn’t studied enough. But to go back to your question about the shamanic the spontaneous,  the shamanic initiation. So what I ended up hearing was this drumming and feeling it in my body, almost like a song that stuck in your head. I just had this repetitive sound going in my head. And when I grown up in Surinam, that wasn’t uncommon for drummers and, and indigenous people to have ceremonies and have, you know, the sound surround generally fill you up with courage and energy. So I did not know why this was happening. I thought it had to do with the rainforest, I was very in tune with still the suffering and the things that were happening as a result of the coup and people struggling with money, and this and that. And so I thought it had to do with the rainforest, possibly, you know, being sold and logged, and losing that part of myself. But what really was at risk was my own connection to my true nature, My sacred feminine all of that being at risk, and that I really had to step out and speak about that. But I was terrified. I was terrified that people would think I was hallucinating or I was psychotic, because all of this was not talked about very much. So I kept it in. And I also have a history of censorship that happened the three years that I was still living in Suriname because of the military coup that I had, you know, my whole history as a young child running into the rainforest, not talking to adults, not trusting them. Then I had the selective mutism. So a lot was happening internally that I was not daring to say out loud to my mentors or anything who knows, maybe they would have supported me. But I graduated I did my dissertation. I did feel like I got validated in terms of what the research was showing, which was very interesting that people from Surinam do have this ability to think more complex, where it isn’t, you know, just being individualistic or collectivistic, as was shown in in the research, they could do both equally well. And that’s exactly where I was coming from where you could do this paradoxical thing, you could think of life as good and bad and these polarities, but there’s still an overarching wholeness and a wise self, which is what I refer to now. Soul authority, helping you make those decisions. So in any event, I trusted that intuition more and then got more vigorous training, and that really helped ease my mind in terms of offering this to clients.

 

Mark Divine  15:22  

That’s terrific. I mean, sounds not dissimilar to, you know, a meditation practitioner, you know, achieving, like an awakened awareness state where they, they experienced non duality and recognize the unity in the, in the connectivity of all beings, and, and are able to bring that and open in their heart, right, which is where the, you know, is considered to be the seat of the soul from the Eastern traditions, and then be able to bring that back into their rationale in a western mindset and live with wisdom, you know, with that integration, but and to be comfortable with the polarities of good and bad and whatnot. So it’s just a different context, right? cultural context, the shamanic path, but I love the connection to nature to that doesn’t mean you don’t always find in the meditative traditions.

 

Loraine Van Tuyl  16:16  

Yeah, well, you’re starting to starting to see that more often. There’s a lot of research also showing, even looking at nature, looking at trees, what kind of impact that has going outside, and you know, sort of the whole nature deficit and how to heal that. But what I’m adding to that is

 

Mark Divine 16:34

Nature baths. 

 

Loraine Van Tuyl 16:35

Yeah, that you are nature, if you look under the microscope, what you’re made of, and you look at water in the lake,

 

Mark Divine 16:42

It’s all the same, 

 

Loraine Van Tuyl 16:43

It’s all the same, right? So, to really know that you can access nature and you know, that natural escape that gives you all this peace and activates your parasympathetic nervous system, there’s a way to go in and activate that and understand that you are that. The other thing I wanted to say that that I really appreciate about you is, you know, I grew up in a culture where there were so many languages. I mean, I grew up, you know, speaking several languages, not even realizing that was several languages. But I think that fluidity and moving into different cultural context is also what’s going on over here when I’m talking about, you know, working with nature elements, using one paradigm and then switching it over translating it to another paradigm translated into Western psychology just to build those bridges, and make it much more accessible to people who understand maybe one and think yours is just so weird. And when you make the connections, it’s not so weird, right? We’ve seen overlap.

 

Mark Divine  17:45  

That’s brilliant, I, we have some similarities and commonalities in that because I’ve been guy got involved in meditation at 21, through Zen, right through the eastern practice of Zen. And then I was introduced to yoga, you know, deep yoga, the eight limbs of yoga in the meditative practices, maybe 12-15 years later. And, of course, through Qigong and deep study of Tai Chi, and I’ve now been studying the martial arts since 21, in yoga, since about 30. At any rate, and I’ve also been engaged in western therapy, since I was 31 years old. And so I, I’m a teacher, you know, that’s my calling, right? My dharma. And so I’ve been able to bring from all these really rich traditions. Even though I grew up in a small town in upstate New York, it didn’t matter, right, my my spirit was able to connect to all these different traditions. And when I started teaching to Navy SEALs, I was like, oh, you know, there’s a, there’s a synthesis here that’s happening. And it was kind of forced on me because I couldn’t teach them yoga, and I couldn’t teach them Zen, they weren’t interested. But they were interested in mental toughness, they were interested in, in in the integrated, you know, holistic kind of health principles, as long as I didn’t talk about it in kind of the woowoo New Age terminology, but give you distilled very practical tools for them. And that that literally became the foundation for SEALFIT, my business. And so that synthesis and integration to bring these really powerful principles to the Western world in a way that makes sense. I think that’s where it’s been a big miss, by the early teachers is because they brought it over with all the cultural trappings of, you know, whatever culture came from, and whether we’re talking about meditation or martial art or, or yoga, and it didn’t really land with many people, because in understand it wasn’t their culture. It wasn’t their time. So that makes sense. And I think that’s why when I see the term, eco psychologists, what I what I hear is an integration of ecological principles, which are going to be grounded in nature and you know, obviously going to have a lot of wisdom to it, combined with Western psychology.

 

Loraine Van Tuyl  19:57  

Yeah, exactly. I call I’m from a very rich background, you I was a dancer my whole life in college was in a modern dance troupe been doing yoga and also Tai Chi, not to the extent that you are but a good 20 plus years. I know the benefits, more vinyasa, Bikram, that kind of practice. I really know the benefits of that. And I think it helps to have embodied understanding of what’s off. And I’ll, if we segue into how I do therapy, will make a lot more sense. But it what I do was develop based on the feedback from my clients. And for example, I did learn how to do shamanic journeys, teach them how to do the journeys, but what they ended up doing was fire guides they didn’t like. And were, you know, in very lopsided ways where, in my intuitive sense, I would see it like, this is not gonna work, you have a lot of air and an intuition, but you’re not grounding it in earth, or there’s not enough fire to set the boundaries. And right, so it was my own sense of how to make sure that ego was balanced, to even receive the guidance. And I love what you’re saying, too, because I work with people from all over. And I’m a firm believer of this myself that life is kind of like a Rorschach. So it has so much to do with also the blueprint or the eyes, you bring the ears you bring to it. And I think it’s more than just this life, you asked me what are some of the things I don’t talk about in another podcast or all the time, but I am fully aware that we have life experiences and wisdom that is carried over and we come in and because of that we are attuned, much quicker to, for example, the level where you add in consciousness to match that, and you see that in the Rorschach from life, right. So it has to do with my background and, and being very multicultural. But I think a lot has to do is also, you know, being very fierce and wanting to maintain that what I already experienced. So it was definitely sort of a cycle and a feedback loop. But the world gave me what I also what I gave the world and shaping that together. And it was balanced whole and I resonate, you know, I see how we’re having kindred spirits in that regard.

 

Mark Divine  22:21  

You use the term using soul authority, as an antidote to epidemic narcissism. You talk about that a little bit, what is it? What do you mean by soul authority, that means my connection to your soul and bringing that forward…

 

Loraine Van Tuyl  22:35  

Connection to your soul, and it’s a play on words,  I kind of like to do that a lot. So you can also think of it as S-O-L-E, authority, you’re the soul authority of your life, not to say that we’re not social beings, and, and shaped by the environment. But as I said, I felt like when I learned about attachment theory growing up, I’m like, I feel like I shamed my parents as much as they shamed me because I was so adamant about certain things. So in terms of soul authority, it has to do with understanding how you perceive reality, and how you respond to it. So when, for example, when I work with clients, I now think of teaching them how to go into a soul sanctuary, which helps them, especially the sensitive and empathic people I work with, become clear about their boundaries, where the energy begins and ends. And this bleed through is in the bleeding heart issues and compassion fatigue is really an issue for that population. So once you do that, and you understand what you’re responsible for, I work with a tree guide to help ground your soul authority to help you connect to the above and below. And instead of then being sort of distorted, lopsided in the trauma body, your with your truth, body, with your soul, and all of these aspects of yourself in balance. So the goal is to start there and there people and retreating and connecting to that part, and how that counters the epidemic of narcissism, I see that narcissism is something that we all do in the modern world, but the ego mind takes over the ego mind that’s not connected, and often also shaped by trauma, ancestor, trauma and all that. So that ego mind is a subset of all of this but tends to be centered and wants to live life from that place. So soul authority sort of demotes that ego mind and helps it become more successful in what it’s meant to do which is to be the operator and to be the manager and to execute what your soul and your whole self want to achieve in life.

 

Mark Divine  24:46  

What do you think, soul is? 

 

Loraine Van Tuyl 24:50

I think of the soul. Woo

 

Mark Divine 24:53

It’s the million dollar question.. because it term is thrown around quite easily and

 

Loraine Van Tuyl  25:01  

thrown and what’s also different than spirit., and this and that.  I really am big on not to get too caught up in words, and  entangled in that, that people want to come in and bring their gods being a frog or this or that, whatever it is. I don’t, I don’t care, I think of soul as your energy. And I think of soul as more pertaining to the individual and spirit to be like, a more, grander idea. And I think of soul and really, in my mind aligned to your wholeness, and that balance, it can go beyond the body, it is this energy that you can claim as yours. When I do meditations, and then it says, very clear what soul is, because your guides will go retrieve it here, they’re everywhere. But eventually, now how I perceive it, and that sort of sanctuary, there’s definitely a clear boundary between me and the outer world. And in that alignment, and in that protection, it’s almost like an organ in a body. So there’s a permeable boundary, but it cannot be too open or too closed, it’s an inner connection with the bigger body, but you are responsible, and you keep it as healthy as possible. And you work in on the individual soul helps the bigger body and the bigger body, but the bigger body does, affects the individual soul.

 

Mark Divine  26:27  

that’s that sounds very similar to kind of the, the Indian yogic ayurveda kind of view of the koshas are the sheaths, right, so you have the physical, and then you have the personality, and then you have the wisdom. And then you have the energetic, or maybe the energetic, and then the wisdom, and then and then you have the causal body. And so the causal body would be considered the, you know, the seat of the soul, or the soul. That’s the karmic energy that threads between lifetimes in that view. And so that comes in and you make a claim that you can be born awake. And I think, if you have an awakening in a prior life, and you end up choosing to come back, as a teacher, healer, whatever, that would kind of align up with that theory, right? That your soul is already had their waking experience that comes back in the body, but you still got to work, then through the genetic and epigenetic issues, right? For what you’re, you’re you’re given based upon the body that you’re born in, or that you choose to be born in, right. And so this is where it could take some time to, like, find that awakening, again, in this current lifetime, because of the traumas that you bring into this world, or that you experience.

 

Loraine Van Tuyl  27:36  

Yeah, for sure. And to update it with the times modern times. And I mean, I’ll tell you one interesting story of one, you know, past life that are uncovered, and this was not, you know, something that my parents were in the culture was talking about a whole lot. But I was so convinced that I was going to do my clients harm and why, you know, this, this really stuck with me talking about the Rorschach, and then my ethics class, then saying that, because I had some pattern around persecution fear. So I had lots of nightmares and fears, you know, like, related to the Board of Psychology, taking my license or doing something wrong. And this all has to do with the past life persecution as a witch. And I was repeating this fear and this trauma not knowing that this was really at the root of it.

 

Mark Divine 28:25

But, well founded. 

 

Loraine Van Tuyl 28:26

Yeah, but but very parallel, right?

 

Mark Divine 28:28

Right, right, interesting

 

Loraine Van Tuyl 28:29

I learned more than I get to the bottom. But you know, what’s interesting, too, and this was a nuanced thing to uncover. And a little tricky, when I was persecuted, I had a near death experience in that past life, right before being persecuted. So I was really confused why I could understand and relate so much to people’s near death experiences in this life without going through any great illness, and I could even spontaneously in retreats and all that really like refabricate sort of that experience and even as a young child would have dreams and stuff like that about death and waking up and understanding you know, consciousness going from one life to another and it just made no sense to me like why this was happening till I uncovered like why before being killed. I said to my you know, executors like, go ahead. I’m just light, you know, I was kind of like,

 

Mark Divine  29:26  

Didn’t make it any easier..

 

Loraine Van Tuyl  29:27  

I was a smart smart aleck about it. So I had to do some healing around that too, playing it out. But yeah, it’s, it’s just fascinating how, how that then repeats itself in this life in a modern context, you know, with different players and different scenarios. But once I heal that past life, I was just completely at ease with doing what I did. And of course, nobody ever had a single complaint. Nobody had any issues with what I did in clinical psychology in this field, but my brain was completely focused on this pattern of I, how I would get in so much trouble, I will put in jail, my family would be hurt, all kinds of things. And it happened in that other life.

 

Mark Divine  30:06  

That is fascinating,and back to this idea of being born awake and you make the claim that you’re seeing, or you believe that more and more people are being born awake. Tell us about that. What’s your evidence? Or what’s your feeling? Or what? Why is this happening?

 

Loraine Van Tuyl  30:23  

Yeah, I, I tell my husband sometimes because you know, watching the news, looking at the world as it is right now. And he sometimes it’s like, you know, things, there’s something wrong with me that I’m so positive, and look at things differently. And I say, you know, what, I should tell you a little bit more, because I hold all this in confidence. But I work with UC Berkeley kids a lot. They’re so young 18-19, 20-21. And here I am, you know, I’ve worked on this model, refined it and done all these things, tweaked it based on hundreds of people, you know, I have this beautiful, like, elegant seamless model now, after like, decades, and they just go on the web. And they go sift through things and look at what’s available, then find me. They say spirit guided them to me, and that they really like my model. And they do this whole analysis, what’s right in my model, and I’m like, and,, where’d you learn this? And they’re like, online. Right? I like that. You’re, what you’re seeing online is not what a lot of people are seeing online. But I get it, I get it, because I was there. How I would see things that not let other people see. But they sift through it all, and they just and then we do the work. And I am also an empath. So in the meditation, I can feel the energy and boy, are they aligned, they’re alive. And yes, they come with a lot of trauma and hardship. And what people see is totally not what I see. But then I boost them, and I reflect what I see. And they feel very validated. And I know they’re going to be the new leaders. And the fact that I’m crying and emotional about it is all the evidence.

 

Mark Divine  32:09  

It’s really neat to see that and did have this discussion, because I’ve come across the same thing, both with younger generations. And all their therapy or other professions, you know, for like the term indigo children. Have you heard that? Right? That’s, that’s a California term. Right? Exactly. And my son is an indigo child. He has like got this massively open heart. He’s completely anti, like ego Western linear thinking, like he just doesn’t do school stuff. Because he doesn’t, it doesn’t resonate with his frequency. But he’s got this massively open heart, this big spirit. And you’re just born that way. Right? And we adopted him, right? He’s part Hawaiian. Right? He’s just a really fascinating kid. And also, I’ve had many spiritual teachers say, Yeah, we’re entering this age, you know, we’re coming out of the Dark Age of the Kali Yuga, which is the Indian, the Hindu tradition, or the yoga tradition of these large these ages that we go through. And the Kali Yuga is the darkest, right, that is the most material and which ends up being the most violent and greedy and egoistic. We’re coming out. And so people are being born at a higher vibrational frequency. They’re born, you know, at universal love, you know what I mean, as opposed to, and so they’re, they find easier time healing from childhood trauma, because they’re already higher vibration right there. And they resonate with those. And so that’s kind of fascinating. And they also say, the epicenter of the spiritual revolution, or evolution is the is America because all of these transplanted philosophies like we’re talking about, you know, Buddhism, and yoga and everything, are given life by this new generation of teachers who are then spreading it via the Internet back across the world. Scaling consciousness, and that’s one of the terms I use for our teachings. Our mission is to train 100 million people in this integrated vertical development, evolving your character and consciousness toward a world centric care and concern and compassion. And it’s first time that we know that we can scale that from from Gandhi saying Be the change you want to see in the world to like, be the change at scale, hundreds of millions or, you know, can imagine billion people, it’ll change things because it’s consciousness. We have like 7.8 billion worlds really, it’s not one world is 7.8 billion people experiencing a world that is of their own creation. And they mistake the world outside is something as real but the reality is when they open your eyes, that’s their world. And so if you change your world internally, then your world changes externally. And imagine 100 million and a billion people changing the world internally. What , what would the external world look like? A lot less violent. A lot more trees?

 

Loraine Van Tuyl  34:51  

Yeah, no. Yeah. Oh, boy. It’s a beautiful mission. One that I’m on. I wanted to respond to that in the indigo child that you have, that it brings back memories because I would go through my head like 20 years ago, asking myself all the time is this ego or is this Indigo? I discovered by this healer, this mystic, after I finished my doctorate degree the first retreat that I went on the first sweat lodge anyway, you know, I that’s how I just I discovered a book or he told me about it, I read it in one night, it reminded me a lot of what my mother would also say, in Dutch that I was away, and ahowa means own wisdom in Dutch, but it could be a compliment, but it could also be like, you’re stubborn as a mule, right? So I, even as a child, I would have to ask myself, Am I really being stubborn? Or am I, you know, being really fierce and honoring my own wisdom, and this, my mother needs to change, because my mother is the one that is stubborn. So you know, that was a back and forth. And I think my whole school authority model is because I honored this checks and balances and wisdom wanting to not do harm, because I was preoccupied and almost even obsessed with harming people with this. So that’s been an interesting situation. In my case, something else about my past life, too. I did a lot of diversity training and multicultural psychology and was really focused on helping people or marginalized, I still do that. But the reason why I shifted to eco psychology, I’m more of the soul authority, even though that can sometimes also be triggering, because it can be in line with the rhetoric or the, you know, the conversations about us being colorblind, and not really seeing what’s happening, you know, with all these different cultures, and their ancestral trauma and this, so it’s really a balancing act, where I say, you know, try to be 1% in your wholeness, and at least 1% more in your wholeness and your wounding, but don’t dismiss or bypass the wounding, because all that needs to be composted. And I think what you’re seeing in the US, too, is a whole diversity of people, right? Where they these youngsters, they are benefiting, it’s an evolution of consciousness, so they’re ever benefiting from all that’s composted, but there’s also a whole lot that isn’t composted, and where we do have to understand the trauma and really, you know, tell those stories, right, and empower people who’ve suffered from that. And sometimes, the tricky part is they feel like their traditions and their wisdoms and practices are stolen, and they’re forgotten. Right? They’re, they’re not empowered. So we need to also, you know, be sensitive and aware of that dilemma, because that’s been going on for centuries and generations. So empowering both and balancing, you know, everybody across the globe equally, I think it’s the mission, and sometimes that will slow down the mission a little bit.

 

Mark Divine  38:01  

Now, it’s important, again, that it’s important to do that, though, with love, as opposed to as like a social justice warrior who’s fighting against it. Right. 

 

Loraine Van Tuyl  38:11

Right. 

 

Mark Divine  38:12 

Because you you when you fight and you bring negative energy, against a negative, even if your intention is to fix it or heal, it magnifies it and makes it worse.

Loraine Van Tuyl  38:20

For sure. 

 

Mark Divine  38:22 

Which I think is a problem with like the critical race theorists and all that. And the way it’s been presented in the media, it has made it worse, right? It’s it’s made the separation worse and racial disparity worse. In my opinion…

 

Loraine Van Tuyl  38:33  

It’s hard to say it it’s worse, it’s the same the Me Too if it is worse or is it better, it brings definitely awareness, it’s a step in the process of when you’re totally imploded. You know, you’re looking at people now totally sometimes exploding, that is not ideal, but to understand the Imploding exploding pattern before you get to a place where I call fierce, compassionate boundary setting, which works more like a fever. And it’s really to protect you and get you to a place of ease, but have the firm boundary. A lot of people can’t do that yet, because there’s so much implosion and trauma, right. And then they’re criticized for exploding but nobody’s looking at the whole history of the implosion that leads to the explosion. So there’s…

 

Mark Divine  39:14  

So it’s out of balance so you get these, 

 

Loraine Van Tuyl  39:16  

you need to really honor. Yeah, understand the whole journey of that,

 

Mark Divine  39:22  

Let’s somewhat relate this or at least transition this to the idea of kind of the Western ego, narcissistic, linear left brain trained mind that leads to this that has led to this kind of linear culture of extraction, production and waste. And also like this idea that we always have to be growing and if you’re not growing an economy, you’re not growing a business than equals bad, right? You’re it’s bad. And when you and I know that you can’t, somebody can’t grow forever, right? It’s just impossible, right? We go in these cycles and like you said, the seasons. And so what what’s unfolding at a grassroots level, but you just don’t hear about it in mainstream media or in our government yet, because there’s no money, there is this circular economy and this idea of circular wisdom that’s starting to pop up. So what’s your take on next? I know there’s something that you’ve discussed in  your teachings.

 

Loraine Van Tuyl  40:14  

So bringing in now down to the nitty gritty and so that the listeners can really benefit. What does this even look like on the ground, right and on the ground. So when I work with clients, and I work with people from all over a lot of people of color women, and so this narcissistic, or what some people call this condition, patriarchal thinking that everybody, I mean, you know, it’s every single person I approach in the same way. So when we go into sanctuary, we enter the heart center, I help them balance their energy field that out kind of like you would a surfer or dancer, or yoga practitioner, they balance their energy, then enter the heart center, go into them go into the Sacred Garden, kind of functions, like a greenhouse, activates the parasympathetic nervous system, and, and all that. So they started working with the central key, and these are the three key first steps that I do with all of them, and no matter what they’re dealing with depression, anxiety, who knows what, if you do this intervention, you already start seeing your world differently. So what that is, is I help them sit and lean against the tree. And it’s already different, because you have to surrender. And you know, sort of feel that support. So the mantra that goes with that is Earth has your back, right, then I have them lean their head back against that tree trunk, so their spine is lit up, they have more courage to have more backbone, hopefully, they can start feeling that connection. But even putting your head back and saying you want now your crown to open and you want to receive guidance from above and below and coming into your channel, rather than you being a coconut brain and operating from this place, which I compared to like a pool of water, it could be organic, could be great to feel natural. But if you’re not connected to the bigger system of waterways, guess what, it’s going to become toxic, it’s going to do all these things. So we start doing that. And we use these metaphors and they say what happens to you? How does that feel for your planning brain, your prefrontal cortex, all of that, to now trust a little bit and receive wisdom first, and then execute just that order. switch that around. And you’ll be amazed how people say that anxiety, it’s almost like you’re demoting your ego mind now from a job that it shouldn’t have had. It  just got confused, because it’s tasked with everything, and it’s overturned with all that guidance coming through. So that’s how I do it on a really simple level starting there. And when they’re open to that, then we start working with the elements, which align that the ego mind we I specifically target with ego mind tends to mess up, which are the usual false stories, trauma, often informed, then boundaries, lack of that the inclusion exclusion pattern, the repetition of that being violated, not being grounded, and actually practicing listening from Earth, how to do that, and then water, how to grieve how to listen to the emotions and make sure that emotions are not a flash flood, but really moving through the whole cycle of your body wisdom.

 

Mark Divine  43:22  

So back to being the change, right? So people then allow this energy to flow, they’re connecting heart and mind. They’re, they’re accessing their wisdom center. And this is going to lead them to make much better choices. 

 

Loraine Van Tuyl  43:35  

Yes

 

Mark Divine  43:35

In their daily actions, such as being aware of, you know, a circular economy and the importance of making sure that we’re not just consuming our way into environmental destruction, or whatever the end looks like, that

 

Loraine Van Tuyl  43:50  

One step at a time, I think you first need to feel empowered, and resourced and healthy. But what I already see people getting is like, Oh, this toxic air, this contaminated water, this degraded soil, how is that related to my body and how I relate to these elements in my body? There’s a relationship there.

 

Mark Divine  44:10  

That’s right. That’s fascinating. Very, very interesting. And your book is called Soul Authority. Is that is that the more recent one? Or did you write another one?

 

Loraine Van Tuyl  44:19  

Yes, that is the more recent Liberal, Liberatory tools for Healing from trauma patterns and restoring trust in your heart compass?

 

Mark Divine  44:28  

Awesome, and where can folks learn more about you and your work?

 

Loraine Van Tuyl  44:31  

The sacred healing well is my website and I shared a link with you. And if they click on that link, they’ll get this diagram, which is the soul authority and all the sanctuary, all the different influence, and they also can download a meditation where I’m reading from my book and guiding them into the soul sanctuary.

 

Mark Divine  44:55  

Terrific. Well, we’ll share that that link but I want to read it out loud. So it’s the sacred healingwell,com/soulsanctuarymeditation. So if you’re driving, just remember that. That’s great, great work. Man, it’s such a pleasure talking to you, Dr. Van Tuyl…I really, really enjoyed the conversation. Very different one for me, but I’m really super excited to have it because I get to talk about things that I don’t normally talk about, you know, and I’ve had a real I was gonna say this earlier, but I had a really cool shamanic experience of my own and, and this is after at SEALFIT, we had an individual pass away and have a heart attack at one of our events or a 50 hour event. And it was fascinating because he was an awesome guy. And he had a heart problem like an enlarged heart. And he passed away the absolute second that I secured the event, meaning it like finished event, I said, everyone, you know, and he’s been up and training for 50 hours straight. He’d been training for over a year for this event. And as soon as I secured the event and said, You’re done,

 

Loraine Van Tuyl  45:56  

huh, 

 

Mark Divine  45:57  

He died.

 

Loraine Van Tuyl  45:58 

gives me goosebumps, 

 

Mark Divine  45:59 

he dies.So that was like his pinnacle. Right? He threw his literally threw his heart into it. And three days later, you know, we’re dealing with this big traumatic experience like that this really rocked my world is like, oh my god, I almost was gonna shut SEALFIT down. I was kind of just traumatized by this. Because I had thrown my heart into SEALFIT and I never in my life would, you know, think this might have happened and I we’ve been through 47 events with not a single incident. So anyways, three days later, I was leading with my stepdaughter a yoga retreat down in Mexico, because we also have a program called Kokoro yoga; Heart, Mind, Action yoga is part of this. She had organized a, an optional visit with a shaman if you wanted to. And I was like, oh, man, you know, I definitely want to do this. And the shaman didn’t speak English. And so he had an interpreter and I go into the room and he’s there an interpreter and he lays down and or I lay down and he you know, he’s he runs his hands over me. He’s doing whatever he shamans do. He’s gathering information. And then he says to me, you have a couple of questions you want to ask me? And I certainly didn’t go into the room thinking I had a question to ask him. Right. But as soon as he said that, the question popped into my mind. And I said, Was it my fault? I didn’t say anything else. I said, What is it my fault? And he looked at me and through the interpreter, incidentally, you said, it was not your fault. In fact, Kirk, which is the guy’s name, who passed away, Kirk is here now. And he says that from his perspective, where he’s at now, you’re a great man. 

 

Loraine Van Tuyl 47:24

Wow. 

 

Mark Divine 47:25

And, and then he said in there’s another individual here, too. His name is Antoine. It was like, Oh, really? He says, Yeah, it’s your he’s your protector. 

 

Loraine Van Tuyl  47:32  

Wow, that sounds 

 

Mark Divine  47:32

And I was like okay, well, I guess I’ve got a spirit, guardian.

 

Loraine Van Tuyl  47:36  

Yeah and maybe from Kirk’s  perspective, you know, that’s the best way to go, man.

 

Mark Divine  47:42  

Yeah, I mean, it really, really

 

Loraine Van Tuyl  47:37  

You couldn’t have planned that better

 

Mark Divine  47:45 

Because I, you know, I’d read about that I, you know, I don’t know if at the time I had ever done any medicine, but since then, I’ve experienced with ayahuasca and, and a few other, you know, psilocybin largely in the context of veteran healing and making sure that, you know, everything’s good in my brain, because after 20 years of being a Navy SEALl, right, everyone’s got to have to deal with something traumatic, right, TBI, whatnot. But anyways, that was the first time that I was like, wow, I have to really, really think about this. And be open to non physical being evident. Like right here, right now. It’s not somewhere else. It’s not up there is like, ever present. And is this just non physical? And we have a non physical aspect of us as well, which you call the soul? 

 

Loraine Van Tuyl  48:28  

Yeah,no, I feel the resonance and you know, sort of the outside shape and coverings does not, you know, it doesn’t deter me. I can feel that. So that’s a beautiful story. Thank you so much for sharing that. 

 

Mark Divine  48:42  

Yeah. I don’t think I’ve ever shared that before. But it’s cool. All right. Well, thank you again, so much document tools, and we’ll send folks your way go visit Dr. Van Tuyl at thesacredhealingwell.com. Right,  thesacredhealingwell.com.

 

Loraine Van Tuyl  48:56  

Yes. Thank you so much Mark, it was a delight. 

 

Mark Divine  49:00  

Yeah, likewise, thank you very much. Hooyah! Take care. That was a fascinating episode with Dr. Lorraine Van Tuyl. You can learn more about her at thesacredhealingwell.com and get a copy of her 10 minute guided meditation and soul sanctuary diagram at that URL thesacredhealingwell.com/soulsanctuarymeditation. We talked about eco psychology, a shamanic healing, epidemic narcissism, what it means to be born awake, what is a soul? And a lot more fascinating, fascinating discussion. Show notes and transcripts are up at MarkDivine.com video is up on our YouTube channel MarkDivine.com/youtube. Social media, I’m at Twitter @Mark Divine and Instagram and Facebook@ Real Mark Divine. Always hit me up on my LinkedIn profile. Our newsletter Divine Inspiration comes out every Tuesday where I disseminate my blog and show notes from our most recent podcasts so you can get a digest for version, and other really cool inspirational things that come across my desk that I think you’ll find value. If you’re not on my email newsletter for that or subscriber list for that go to MarkDivine.com to sign up and subscribe. Special shout out to my amazing team, Geoff Haskell, Jason Sanderson. Jeff Torres, and Q Williams who helped produce the podcasts, find incredible guests and bring them to you every week. Reviews are amazing. So consider reviewing and rating the show at Apple or wherever you listen and thank you so much for being part of the journey and doing the work to make yourself more unbeatable, to be fit like a Navy SEAL. And to be part of the change that we want to see in the world. Till next week. Thank you very much, and Hooyah, Divine out.

 

Nick Swisher  50:53  

What’s up everybody. It’s all started World Series champ Nick Swisher here, and I’m stoked to tell you about my new podcast, the Nick Swisher show right here on podcast one. If you know me, you know I’ve worn a lot of hats in my career. And each one of them has had highs, lows and a whole lot of learning in between. And that’s exactly what I’m bringing to this podcast. You’re going to get crazy interviews with athletes from their struggles to their successes, and all their unbelievable superstitions along the way, you’re going to hear from Hometown Heroes that are stepping up to the plate and making positive change and influences in their communities. I mean, we’ve got scientists, coaches, comedians. I’m telling you, whether you’re an athlete, a parent, a coach, or just looking for a little energy in your life, then homeplate is right here. It’s old school soul with new school vibes. It’s the Nick Swisher show coming soon, wherever you your podcasts

 

Transcribed by Catherine  https://otter.ai